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List:       kde-look
Subject:    Re: KDE Standards - Basic - Windows
From:       Peter Penz <peter.penz () jk ! uni-linz ! ac ! at>
Date:       1999-09-22 15:54:22
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Hi Waldo!

Waldo Bastian wrote:
> 
> Hiya,
> 
> I will give some of my views about the new KDE UI Guidelines.
> I try to stick with one subject per e-mail so you will see some more mails of me :-)
> 
> KDE Standards - Basic - Windows
> =============================
> 
> The current style guide, although not clearly, seems to present SDI as the one and
> only solution. Althoug I'm not a fan of MDI myself, some people are, and support
> for this might be added for this in KDE in the future. Therefore I think it would be worthwhile
> to specify a standard for both SDI and MDI. Even though it will be very hard to implement
> a proper MDI  interface at the moment.
Shouldn't we wait with that, until MDI is really supported by X-Window?
I never saw a real implementation of MDI on KDE and I think there will
never be one, until X supports it (with "real" implementation I don't
mean a imitation of a MDI like Gimp does).

> 
> Currently it is stated:
> In a MDI we have an Exit, which quits the application (= mother window) and a
> Close, which closes a document (= child window). In a SDI we have no Exit and no Close.
> We have a Quit, which should close the document and it's window.
> 
> My opinion:
> 
> 1) File->Quit should terminate the application as perceived by the user.
> (This is always the same as clicking the X on the main window border)
> * For SDI this means, the mainwindow (only 1) should be closed as well as the
> document inside it.
We had exactly this in the guidelines one week ago. But we thought
helper-windows (I don't mean the standard-documentation, I mean
interactive helperwindows) or dialogs (e. g. change color) should be
closed too, because they both are a kind of dialog and NOT a document,
which make no sense without the document they refer...

> * For MDI this means all child-windows should be closed as well as any mother window,
> together with all documents inside it.
Agree (if we would have a MDI :-).

> 
> 2) File->Close should mean "close file" or "close document" (or "close image", or whatever you have)
Totally agree (some people think it should mean 'close window'...), but
still I heard no reason, why we need a Close.

> After all this option is in the file menu. Close never quits the application.
Agree.

> * For SDI this means that the document is closed but not the window. An empty window will
> remain.
Agree, but where's the sense (english?) of an empty window? We have a
SINGLE-document-interface with NO document :-) The developer would have
to inactivate all menus except File->new and File->open.

Q: tell me one example, where you need to 'Close' a document (=> empty
window) in a SDI and not closing the window...

> * For MDI this means that the document and its window is closed. (But not the mainwindow)
Yes - in a MDI a Close makes sense!

> 
> 3) Optionally a "Close window" option can be added to a menu (a window menu?). This is
> _exactly_ the same as selecting "Close" from the WM-menu.
> * In SDI this is equivalent to File->Quit.
Two menu-entries for the same-action? Some developers will use Close,
the others Quit... Doesn't sound consistent...

> * in MDI this is equivalent to File->Close.
So why a 'Close window'?

> 4) File->Open opens a new file/document/image without closing any existent document.
> 
> * In SDI the document is opened in the main-window if it is empty, or in a new one if the
> window already contains a document.
I see what you mean and why you want an empty window. But don't you
think having no Close and no empty window leads to less confusion? I
mean: you say "if the window is empty, 'open' does this, if the window
has a document, 'open' does that" and "if the window is empty, 'new'
does this, if the window has a document, 'new' does that".

For me it sounds to complicatet... We have the same functionality
without the 'close'. Not even one more mouseclick is needed. 

> * In MDI the document is opened in a new (child) window.
Hmm... Ok.

> 
> 5) Closing a document (whatever the cause) should always ask the user whether he wants
> to save his changes, if any changes have been made.
Sure.

> 
> Remarks:
> 
> With SDI several windows can in fact be part of a single process. Since this is not clear to
> the user, 'quit' should always terminate _1_ mainwindow, and _1_ mainwindow only.
Totally agree.

Cheers,
Peter


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