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List: kde-i18n-doc
Subject: Re: Hebrew plural forms
From: Yaron Shahrabani <sh.yaron () gmail ! com>
Date: 2023-10-23 5:38:08
Message-ID: CACVjhxXRO0+EipKhg=dMjnhcjCfV=uZCUh8U+MZOu7aC1WXvkg () mail ! gmail ! com
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Thank you so much, I've started working on it.
Yaron Shahrabani
<DevOps - Hebrew translator>
On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 11:45 PM Albert Astals Cid <aacid@kde.org> wrote:
> El dijous, 19 d'octubre de 2023, a les 12:43:27 (CEST), Yaron Shahrabani
> va
> escriure:
> > Sounds reasonable, you said it's possible to apply only on KF6, if so I
> > don't think it should be a problem.
>
> Done.
>
> >
> > Thank you :)
> > Yaron Shahrabani
> >
> > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 8:56 AM Johnny Jazeix <jazeix@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Yaron,
> > > depending on your need, there is polib in python
> > > (https://polib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quickstart.html) which should
> > > allow you to browse the files and find which ones have plurals, and
> > > update them if needed. There are probably other tools but that is the
> > > one I know :).
> > >
> > > The fuzzy should keep the values for 1 and 2, so copying it the second
> > > translation to the fourth form should be doable (it would still need
> > > review but should lessen the work).
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Johnny
> > >
> > > Le mer. 18 oct. 2023 Ã 23:57, Albert Astals Cid <aacid@kde.org> a
> écrit :
> > > > El dimecres, 18 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:17:01 (CEST), Yaron
> > >
> > > Shahrabani va
> > >
> > > > escriure:
> > > > > I bet there is :)
> > > > > The new plural form will require some string modifications in
> addition
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > > > the header.
> > > > >
> > > > > The current formula is as follows:
> > > > > [1 - 1] %d house
> > > > > [2 - !1] %d houses
> > > > >
> > > > > The new formula is a bit more complex:
> > > > > [1 - 1] %d house
> > > > > [2 - 2] %d/two houses
> > > > > [3 - X%10 == 0 when X is larger than 10] %d house
> > > > > [4 - !1/!2] %d houses (matches the second form in the current
> formula)
> > > > >
> > > > > So one option would be just breaking all the plural strings,
> > > >
> > > > Not breaking, but marking them as fuzzy, yes, that's what the script
> > >
> > > does.
> > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Albert
> > > >
> > > > > the second
> > > > > would be copying the 2nd form to the 3rd and 4th (won't break the
> > >
> > > string
> > >
> > > > > but I'll need to fix it manually).
> > > > > I can try and think of a way to handle this completely
> automatically
> > >
> > > but I
> > >
> > > > > don't think it's worth the trouble.
> > > > >
> > > > > So merely changing the form is not enough.
> > > > > Thanks :)
> > > > > Yaron Shahrabani
> > > > >
> > > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 11:08 PM Albert Astals Cid <aacid@kde.org>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > El dissabte, 14 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:37:21 (CEST), Yaron
> > >
> > > Shahrabani
> > >
> > > > > > va
> > > > > >
> > > > > > escriure:
> > > > > > > I'm really hoping we can find a way to pull this off, it'll
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > human
> > > > > > > resources beyond our reach.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can try and think about a way to do this automatically but
> I'm
> > >
> > > afraid
> > >
> > > > > > it
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > won't be perfect.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do what automatically?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Change the plural definition for all files?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have a script to do that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Albert
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are there any examples of other languages that switched plural
> > >
> > > forms in
> > >
> > > > > > KDE
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > along their history?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > > Yaron Shahrabani
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 10:44 AM Johnny Jazeix <
> jazeix@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Le mar. 10 oct. 2023 Ã 09:38, Yaron Shahrabani <
> > >
> > > sh.yaron@gmail.com> a
> > >
> > > > > > > > écrit :
> > > > > > > > > So what about my first question, it only applies to new
> > >
> > > submissions?
> > >
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > It is for all the files or none. We cannot change the plural
> > >
> > > forms for
> > >
> > > > > > > > only some files.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > > Johnny
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2023, 01:35 Albert Astals Cid <
> aacid@kde.org>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> El divendres, 6 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:33:21 (CEST),
> > >
> > > Yaron
> > >
> > > > > > > > Shahrabani va
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> escriure:
> > > > > > > > >> > Hey, if it's only relevant for new submissions that's
> fine,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > applying
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > to all current files will be very cumbersome.
> > > > > > > > >> > Is there a way to accept both?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> All KDE files for a given language must have the same
> plural
> > > > > > > > >> definition.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Albert
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > Yaron Shahrabani
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:17 PM Albert Astals Cid <
> > >
> > > aacid@kde.org>
> > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> > > El dijous, 5 d'octubre de 2023, a les 20:27:44 (CEST),
> > >
> > > Yaron
> > >
> > > > > > > > Shahrabani va
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > escriure:
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Over the last couple of days I ran into a problem
> where
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > > > > > > > gettext
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > files
> > > > > > > > >> > > > I've submitted caused all sorts of issues with
> Scripty.
> > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > KDE is still using the old plural form for Hebrew (2
> > >
> > > cases):
> > > > > > > > >> > > > "Plural-Forms: nplurals=2; plural=n != 1;\n"
> > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Several years ago this formula was changed to
> reflect
> > >
> > > some
> > >
> > > > > > rare
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > cases in
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Hebrew.
> > > > > > > > >> > > > The new official formula is:
> > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > "Plural-Forms: nplurals=4; plural=(n == 1) ? 0 :
> ((n ==
> > >
> > > 2) ?
> > >
> > > > > > 1 :
> > > > > > > > ((n >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > 10
> > > > > > > > >> > > > && n % 10 == 0) ? 2 : 3));\n"
> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > This is documented here:
> > >
> http://www.unicode.org/cldr/cldr-aux/charts/22/supplemental/language_plura
> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > l_>
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > rules.html
> > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > I've been using this formula for several years now.
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Some other projects implementing it:
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Weblate, Transifex, Crowding, Poedit and many
> others.
> > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Since the actual cases for using this formula are
> rare
> > >
> > > (time
> > >
> > > > > > > > related
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > terms
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > - hours, days, months, years, times) it's not always
> > > > > >
> > > > > > necessary to
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > use it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > so
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > supporting the older formula in addition to the new
> one
> > >
> > > is
> > >
> > > > > > > > definitely a
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > good option for now.
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > We can change to the new formula, but that means
> > >
> > > invalidating
> > >
> > > > > > all
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > plurals
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > that
> > > > > > > > >> > > use the nplurals=2 formula, is that ok for you?
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > Albert
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > > > >> > > > Yaron Shahrabani
> > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
>
>
>
>
>
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Thank \
you so much, I've started working on it.<br clear="all"></div><div><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div \
dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:large"><span \
style="font-family:georgia,serif"><font color="#990000">Yaron</font></span><font \
color="#330000"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <font size="4"><span \
style="font-family:times new \
roman,serif">Shahrabani</span></font></span></font></span><blockquote style="margin:0 \
0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><font color="#666666"><span \
style="font-size:x-small"><font color="#FF0000"><</font></span><font \
size="2"><span style="font-family:monospace">DevOps</span> - <span \
style="font-family:garamond,serif">Hebrew translator</span></font><span \
style="font-size:x-small"><font \
color="#FF0000">></font></span></font></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at \
11:45 PM Albert Astals Cid <<a href="mailto:aacid@kde.org">aacid@kde.org</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">El dijous, 19 \
d'octubre de 2023, a les 12:43:27 (CEST), Yaron Shahrabani va <br> escriure:<br>
> Sounds reasonable, you said it's possible to apply only on KF6, if so \
I<br> > don't think it should be a problem.<br>
<br>
Done.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Thank you :)<br>
> Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> <br>
> <DevOps - Hebrew translator><br>
> <br>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 8:56 AM Johnny Jazeix <<a \
href="mailto:jazeix@gmail.com" target="_blank">jazeix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> \
> > Hi Yaron,<br> > > depending on your need, there is polib in \
python<br> > > (<a \
href="https://polib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quickstart.html" rel="noreferrer" \
target="_blank">https://polib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quickstart.html</a>) which \
should<br> > > allow you to browse the files and find which ones have plurals, \
and<br> > > update them if needed. There are probably other tools but that is \
the<br> > > one I know :).<br>
> > <br>
> > The fuzzy should keep the values for 1 and 2, so copying it the second<br>
> > translation to the fourth form should be doable (it would still need<br>
> > review but should lessen the work).<br>
> > <br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> > <br>
> > Johnny<br>
> > <br>
> > Le mer. 18 oct. 2023 Ã 23:57, Albert Astals Cid <<a \
href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>> a écrit :<br> > \
> > El dimecres, 18 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:17:01 (CEST), Yaron<br> > \
> <br> > > Shahrabani va<br>
> > <br>
> > > escriure:<br>
> > > > I bet there is :)<br>
> > > > The new plural form will require some string modifications in \
addition<br> > > <br>
> > to<br>
> > <br>
> > > > the header.<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > The current formula is as follows:<br>
> > > > [1 - 1] %d house<br>
> > > > [2 - !1] %d houses<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > The new formula is a bit more complex:<br>
> > > > [1 - 1] %d house<br>
> > > > [2 - 2] %d/two houses<br>
> > > > [3 - X%10 == 0 when X is larger than 10] %d house<br>
> > > > [4 - !1/!2] %d houses (matches the second form in the current \
formula)<br> > > > > <br>
> > > > So one option would be just breaking all the plural strings,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Not breaking, but marking them as fuzzy, yes, that's what the \
script<br> > > <br>
> > does.<br>
> > <br>
> > > Cheers,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Albert<br>
> > > <br>
> > > > the second<br>
> > > > would be copying the 2nd form to the 3rd and 4th (won't break \
the<br> > > <br>
> > string<br>
> > <br>
> > > > but I'll need to fix it manually).<br>
> > > > I can try and think of a way to handle this completely \
automatically<br> > > <br>
> > but I<br>
> > <br>
> > > > don't think it's worth the trouble.<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > So merely changing the form is not enough.<br>
> > > > Thanks :)<br>
> > > > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator><br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 11:08 PM Albert Astals Cid <<a \
href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>><br> > > <br>
> > wrote:<br>
> > > > > El dissabte, 14 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:37:21 (CEST), \
Yaron<br> > > <br>
> > Shahrabani<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > va<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > escriure:<br>
> > > > > > I'm really hoping we can find a way to pull this \
off, it'll<br> > > > > > > require<br>
> > > > > > human<br>
> > > > > > resources beyond our reach.<br>
> > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > I can try and think about a way to do this \
automatically but I'm<br> > > <br>
> > afraid<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > it<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > > won't be perfect.<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Do what automatically?<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Change the plural definition for all files?<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > We have a script to do that.<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Cheers,<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Albert<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > > Are there any examples of other languages that switched \
plural<br> > > <br>
> > forms in<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > KDE<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > > along their history?<br>
> > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > Thanks.<br>
> > > > > > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator><br>
> > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 10:44 AM Johnny Jazeix <<a \
href="mailto:jazeix@gmail.com" target="_blank">jazeix@gmail.com</a>><br> > > \
<br> > > wrote:<br>
> > > > > > > Le mar. 10 oct. 2023 Ã 09:38, Yaron Shahrabani \
<<br> > > <br>
> > <a href="mailto:sh.yaron@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">sh.yaron@gmail.com</a>> a<br> > > <br>
> > > > > > > écrit :<br>
> > > > > > > > So what about my first question, it only \
applies to new<br> > > <br>
> > submissions?<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > Hi,<br>
> > > > > > > It is for all the files or none. We cannot change \
the plural<br> > > <br>
> > forms for<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > only some files.<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > Cheers<br>
> > > > > > > Johnny<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2023, 01:35 Albert Astals Cid \
<<a href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>><br> > \
> <br> > > wrote:<br>
> > > > > > > >> El divendres, 6 d'octubre de 2023, a les \
22:33:21 (CEST),<br> > > <br>
> > Yaron<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > Shahrabani va<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> escriure:<br>
> > > > > > > >> > Hey, if it's only relevant for \
new submissions that's fine,<br> > > > > > <br>
> > > > > applying<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > that<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > to all current files will be very \
cumbersome.<br> > > > > > > > >> > Is there a way to \
accept both?<br> > > > > > > > >> <br>
> > > > > > > >> All KDE files for a given language must \
have the same plural<br> > > > > > > > >> definition.<br>
> > > > > > > >> <br>
> > > > > > > >> Cheers,<br>
> > > > > > > >> <br>
> > > > > > > >> Albert<br>
> > > > > > > >> <br>
> > > > > > > >> > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> > > > > > > >> > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > <DevOps - Hebrew \
translator><br> > > > > > > > >> > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:17 PM \
Albert Astals Cid <<br> > > <br>
> > <a href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>><br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > wrote:<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > El dijous, 5 d'octubre de 2023, \
a les 20:27:44 (CEST),<br> > > <br>
> > Yaron<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > Shahrabani va<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > escriure:<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > Over the last couple of \
days I ran into a problem where<br> > > <br>
> > the<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > gettext<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > files<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > I've submitted caused \
all sorts of issues with Scripty.<br> > > > > > > > >> \
> > > <br> > > > > > > > >> > > > KDE is \
still using the old plural form for Hebrew (2<br> > > <br>
> > cases):<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > "Plural-Forms: \
nplurals=2; plural=n != 1;\n"<br> > > > > > > > >> \
> > > <br> > > > > > > > >> > > > \
Several years ago this formula was changed to reflect<br> > > <br>
> > some<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > rare<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > cases in<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > Hebrew.<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > The new official formula \
is:<br> > > > > > > > >> > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > "Plural-Forms: \
nplurals=4; plural=(n == 1) ? 0 : ((n ==<br> > > <br>
> > 2) ?<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > 1 :<br>
> > > > > > > ((n ><br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > 10<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > && n % 10 == 0) ? \
2 : 3));\n"<br> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > This is documented \
here:<br> > > <a \
href="http://www.unicode.org/cldr/cldr-aux/charts/22/supplemental/language_plura" \
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.unicode.org/cldr/cldr-aux/charts/22/supplemental/language_plura</a><br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > l_><br>
> > > > > > > >> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > rules.html<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > I've been using this \
formula for several years now.<br> > > > > > > > >> > \
> > Some other projects implementing it:<br> > > > > > > > \
>> > > > Weblate, Transifex, Crowding, Poedit and many others.<br> \
> > > > > > > >> > > > <br> > > > > \
> > > >> > > > Since the actual cases for using this formula \
are rare<br> > > <br>
> > (time<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > related<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > terms<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > - hours, days, months, \
years, times) it's not always<br> > > > > > <br>
> > > > > necessary to<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > use it<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > so<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > supporting the older \
formula in addition to the new one<br> > > <br>
> > is<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > > > definitely a<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > good option for now.<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > We can change to the new \
formula, but that means<br> > > <br>
> > invalidating<br>
> > <br>
> > > > > all<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > plurals<br>
> > > > > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > that<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > use the nplurals=2 formula, is \
that ok for you?<br> > > > > > > > >> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > Cheers,<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > Albert<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you,<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > <br>
> > > > > > > >> > > > <DevOps - Hebrew \
translator><br> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
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