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List: kde-i18n-doc
Subject: Re: Hebrew plural forms
From: Yaron Shahrabani <sh.yaron () gmail ! com>
Date: 2023-10-19 10:43:27
Message-ID: CACVjhxX7s6eY_asSeHsDhbs-K9+xNWxMUZ_GCtTeU_nUe0nB_A () mail ! gmail ! com
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Sounds reasonable, you said it's possible to apply only on KF6, if so I
don't think it should be a problem.
Thank you :)
Yaron Shahrabani
<DevOps - Hebrew translator>
On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 8:56 AM Johnny Jazeix <jazeix@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Yaron,
> depending on your need, there is polib in python
> (https://polib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quickstart.html) which should
> allow you to browse the files and find which ones have plurals, and
> update them if needed. There are probably other tools but that is the
> one I know :).
>
> The fuzzy should keep the values for 1 and 2, so copying it the second
> translation to the fourth form should be doable (it would still need
> review but should lessen the work).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Johnny
>
> Le mer. 18 oct. 2023 à 23:57, Albert Astals Cid <aacid@kde.org> a écrit :
> >
> > El dimecres, 18 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:17:01 (CEST), Yaron
> Shahrabani va
> > escriure:
> > > I bet there is :)
> > > The new plural form will require some string modifications in addition
> to
> > > the header.
> > >
> > > The current formula is as follows:
> > > [1 - 1] %d house
> > > [2 - !1] %d houses
> > >
> > > The new formula is a bit more complex:
> > > [1 - 1] %d house
> > > [2 - 2] %d/two houses
> > > [3 - X%10 == 0 when X is larger than 10] %d house
> > > [4 - !1/!2] %d houses (matches the second form in the current formula)
> > >
> > > So one option would be just breaking all the plural strings,
> >
> > Not breaking, but marking them as fuzzy, yes, that's what the script
> does.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Albert
> >
> > > the second
> > > would be copying the 2nd form to the 3rd and 4th (won't break the
> string
> > > but I'll need to fix it manually).
> > > I can try and think of a way to handle this completely automatically
> but I
> > > don't think it's worth the trouble.
> > >
> > > So merely changing the form is not enough.
> > > Thanks :)
> > > Yaron Shahrabani
> > >
> > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 11:08 PM Albert Astals Cid <aacid@kde.org>
> wrote:
> > > > El dissabte, 14 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:37:21 (CEST), Yaron
> Shahrabani
> > > > va
> > > >
> > > > escriure:
> > > > > I'm really hoping we can find a way to pull this off, it'll require
> > > > > human
> > > > > resources beyond our reach.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can try and think about a way to do this automatically but I'm
> afraid
> > > >
> > > > it
> > > >
> > > > > won't be perfect.
> > > >
> > > > Do what automatically?
> > > >
> > > > Change the plural definition for all files?
> > > >
> > > > We have a script to do that.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Albert
> > > >
> > > > > Are there any examples of other languages that switched plural
> forms in
> > > >
> > > > KDE
> > > >
> > > > > along their history?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > Yaron Shahrabani
> > > > >
> > > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 10:44 AM Johnny Jazeix <jazeix@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > Le mar. 10 oct. 2023 Ã 09:38, Yaron Shahrabani <
> sh.yaron@gmail.com> a
> > > > > >
> > > > > > écrit :
> > > > > > > So what about my first question, it only applies to new
> submissions?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > It is for all the files or none. We cannot change the plural
> forms for
> > > > > > only some files.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > Johnny
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2023, 01:35 Albert Astals Cid <aacid@kde.org>
> wrote:
> > > > > > >> El divendres, 6 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:33:21 (CEST),
> Yaron
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Shahrabani va
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> escriure:
> > > > > > >> > Hey, if it's only relevant for new submissions that's fine,
> > > >
> > > > applying
> > > >
> > > > > > that
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > to all current files will be very cumbersome.
> > > > > > >> > Is there a way to accept both?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> All KDE files for a given language must have the same plural
> > > > > > >> definition.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Albert
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > Yaron Shahrabani
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:17 PM Albert Astals Cid <
> aacid@kde.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > El dijous, 5 d'octubre de 2023, a les 20:27:44 (CEST),
> Yaron
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Shahrabani va
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > escriure:
> > > > > > >> > > > Over the last couple of days I ran into a problem where
> the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > gettext
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > files
> > > > > > >> > > > I've submitted caused all sorts of issues with Scripty.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > KDE is still using the old plural form for Hebrew (2
> cases):
> > > > > > >> > > > "Plural-Forms: nplurals=2; plural=n != 1;\n"
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Several years ago this formula was changed to reflect
> some
> > > >
> > > > rare
> > > >
> > > > > > cases in
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Hebrew.
> > > > > > >> > > > The new official formula is:
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > "Plural-Forms: nplurals=4; plural=(n == 1) ? 0 : ((n ==
> 2) ?
> > > >
> > > > 1 :
> > > > > > ((n >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > 10
> > > > > > >> > > > && n % 10 == 0) ? 2 : 3));\n"
> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > This is documented here:
> > > >
> http://www.unicode.org/cldr/cldr-aux/charts/22/supplemental/language_plura
> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > l_>
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > rules.html
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > I've been using this formula for several years now.
> > > > > > >> > > > Some other projects implementing it:
> > > > > > >> > > > Weblate, Transifex, Crowding, Poedit and many others.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Since the actual cases for using this formula are rare
> (time
> > > > > >
> > > > > > related
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > terms
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > - hours, days, months, years, times) it's not always
> > > >
> > > > necessary to
> > > >
> > > > > > use it
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > so
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > supporting the older formula in addition to the new one
> is
> > > > > >
> > > > > > definitely a
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > good option for now.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > We can change to the new formula, but that means
> invalidating
> > > >
> > > > all
> > > >
> > > > > > plurals
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > that
> > > > > > >> > > use the nplurals=2 formula, is that ok for you?
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Cheers,
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Albert
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > >> > > > Yaron Shahrabani
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" \
style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Sounds reasonable, you said it's possible \
to apply only on KF6, if so I don't think it should be a problem.</div><div \
class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div \
class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Thank you :)<br \
clear="all"></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div \
dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:large"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif"><font \
color="#990000">Yaron</font></span><font color="#330000"><span \
style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <font size="4"><span style="font-family:times new \
roman,serif">Shahrabani</span></font></span></font></span><blockquote style="margin:0 \
0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><font color="#666666"><span \
style="font-size:x-small"><font color="#FF0000"><</font></span><font \
size="2"><span style="font-family:monospace">DevOps</span> - <span \
style="font-family:garamond,serif">Hebrew translator</span></font><span \
style="font-size:x-small"><font \
color="#FF0000">></font></span></font></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at \
8:56 AM Johnny Jazeix <<a \
href="mailto:jazeix@gmail.com">jazeix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Yaron,<br> depending on your need, there is \
polib in python<br> (<a href="https://polib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quickstart.html" \
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://polib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quickstart.html</a>) \
which should<br> allow you to browse the files and find which ones have plurals, \
and<br> update them if needed. There are probably other tools but that is the<br>
one I know :).<br>
<br>
The fuzzy should keep the values for 1 and 2, so copying it the second<br>
translation to the fourth form should be doable (it would still need<br>
review but should lessen the work).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Johnny<br>
<br>
Le mer. 18 oct. 2023 Ã 23:57, Albert Astals Cid <<a href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" \
target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>> a écrit :<br> ><br>
> El dimecres, 18 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:17:01 (CEST), Yaron Shahrabani \
va<br> > escriure:<br>
> > I bet there is :)<br>
> > The new plural form will require some string modifications in addition \
to<br> > > the header.<br>
> ><br>
> > The current formula is as follows:<br>
> > [1 - 1] %d house<br>
> > [2 - !1] %d houses<br>
> ><br>
> > The new formula is a bit more complex:<br>
> > [1 - 1] %d house<br>
> > [2 - 2] %d/two houses<br>
> > [3 - X%10 == 0 when X is larger than 10] %d house<br>
> > [4 - !1/!2] %d houses (matches the second form in the current formula)<br>
> ><br>
> > So one option would be just breaking all the plural strings,<br>
><br>
> Not breaking, but marking them as fuzzy, yes, that's what the script \
does.<br> ><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Albert<br>
><br>
> > the second<br>
> > would be copying the 2nd form to the 3rd and 4th (won't break the \
string<br> > > but I'll need to fix it manually).<br>
> > I can try and think of a way to handle this completely automatically but \
I<br> > > don't think it's worth the trouble.<br>
> ><br>
> > So merely changing the form is not enough.<br>
> > Thanks :)<br>
> > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> ><br>
> > <DevOps - Hebrew translator><br>
> ><br>
> > On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 11:08 PM Albert Astals Cid <<a \
href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>> wrote:<br> > \
> > El dissabte, 14 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:37:21 (CEST), Yaron \
Shahrabani<br> > > > va<br>
> > ><br>
> > > escriure:<br>
> > > > I'm really hoping we can find a way to pull this off, \
it'll require<br> > > > > human<br>
> > > > resources beyond our reach.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > I can try and think about a way to do this automatically but \
I'm afraid<br> > > ><br>
> > > it<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > won't be perfect.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Do what automatically?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Change the plural definition for all files?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > We have a script to do that.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Cheers,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Albert<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Are there any examples of other languages that switched plural \
forms in<br> > > ><br>
> > > KDE<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > along their history?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Thanks.<br>
> > > > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > <DevOps - Hebrew translator><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 10:44 AM Johnny Jazeix <<a \
href="mailto:jazeix@gmail.com" target="_blank">jazeix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> \
> > > > > Le mar. 10 oct. 2023 Ã 09:38, Yaron Shahrabani <<a \
href="mailto:sh.yaron@gmail.com" target="_blank">sh.yaron@gmail.com</a>> a<br> \
> > > > ><br> > > > > > écrit :<br>
> > > > > > So what about my first question, it only applies to new \
submissions?<br> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > Hi,<br>
> > > > > It is for all the files or none. We cannot change the plural \
forms for<br> > > > > > only some files.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Cheers<br>
> > > > > Johnny<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2023, 01:35 Albert Astals Cid <<a \
href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>> wrote:<br> > \
> > > > >> El divendres, 6 d'octubre de 2023, a les 22:33:21 \
(CEST), Yaron<br> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > Shahrabani va<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> escriure:<br>
> > > > > >> > Hey, if it's only relevant for new \
submissions that's fine,<br> > > ><br>
> > > applying<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > > that<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > to all current files will be very \
cumbersome.<br> > > > > > >> > Is there a way to accept \
both?<br> > > > > > >><br>
> > > > > >> All KDE files for a given language must have the \
same plural<br> > > > > > >> definition.<br>
> > > > > >><br>
> > > > > >> Cheers,<br>
> > > > > >><br>
> > > > > >> Albert<br>
> > > > > >><br>
> > > > > >> > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> > > > > >> ><br>
> > > > > >> > <DevOps - Hebrew translator><br>
> > > > > >> ><br>
> > > > > >> > On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:17 PM Albert \
Astals Cid <<a href="mailto:aacid@kde.org" \
target="_blank">aacid@kde.org</a>><br> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > wrote:<br>
> > > > > >> > > El dijous, 5 d'octubre de 2023, a les \
20:27:44 (CEST), Yaron<br> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > Shahrabani va<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > escriure:<br>
> > > > > >> > > > Over the last couple of days I ran \
into a problem where the<br> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > gettext<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > files<br>
> > > > > >> > > > I've submitted caused all sorts \
of issues with Scripty.<br> > > > > > >> > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > KDE is still using the old plural \
form for Hebrew (2 cases):<br> > > > > > >> > > > \
"Plural-Forms: nplurals=2; plural=n != 1;\n"<br> > > > > > \
>> > > ><br> > > > > > >> > > > Several \
years ago this formula was changed to reflect some<br> > > ><br>
> > > rare<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > > cases in<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > Hebrew.<br>
> > > > > >> > > > The new official formula is:<br>
> > > > > >> > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > "Plural-Forms: nplurals=4; \
plural=(n == 1) ? 0 : ((n == 2) ?<br> > > ><br>
> > > 1 :<br>
> > > > > ((n ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > 10<br>
> > > > > >> > > > && n % 10 == 0) ? 2 : \
3));\n"<br> > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > This is documented here:<br>
> > > <a href="http://www.unicode.org/cldr/cldr-aux/charts/22/supplemental/language_plura" \
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.unicode.org/cldr/cldr-aux/charts/22/supplemental/language_plura</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > l_><br>
> > > > > >> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > rules.html<br>
> > > > > >> > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > I've been using this formula for \
several years now.<br> > > > > > >> > > > Some other \
projects implementing it:<br> > > > > > >> > > > \
Weblate, Transifex, Crowding, Poedit and many others.<br> > > > > > \
>> > > ><br> > > > > > >> > > > Since \
the actual cases for using this formula are rare (time<br> > > > > \
><br> > > > > > related<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > terms<br>
> > > > > >> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > - hours, days, months, years, times) \
it's not always<br> > > ><br>
> > > necessary to<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > > use it<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > so<br>
> > > > > >> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > supporting the older formula in \
addition to the new one is<br> > > > > ><br>
> > > > > definitely a<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > good option for now.<br>
> > > > > >> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > We can change to the new formula, but \
that means invalidating<br> > > ><br>
> > > all<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > > plurals<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > that<br>
> > > > > >> > > use the nplurals=2 formula, is that ok \
for you?<br> > > > > > >> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > Cheers,<br>
> > > > > >> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > Albert<br>
> > > > > >> > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > Thank you,<br>
> > > > > >> > > > Yaron Shahrabani<br>
> > > > > >> > > ><br>
> > > > > >> > > > <DevOps - Hebrew \
translator><br> ><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
</blockquote></div>
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