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List: kde-i18n-doc
Subject: T13514: Migrate KDE translations to Git
From: Yuri Chornoivan <noreply () phabricator ! kde ! org>
Date: 2020-08-22 15:56:27
Message-ID: 15bbde68ace7861638de595993d0d56e () localhost ! localdomain
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yurchor added a comment.
In T13514#237939 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237939>, @clel wrote:
> In T13514#237910 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237910>, @yurchor wrote:
>
> > In T13514#237909 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237909>, @clel wrote:
> >
> > > Alright. Then I don't really understand what problems you have with Weblate. \
The things you wrote are too general for me to understand what the concrete problems \
are that you experience. > >
> >
> > Sure. Just one thing that I do not understand is that people who do not really \
understand how the translation system works eagerly want to change that system. >
>
> When you write "Sure", I expect some more insights :) You wrote about problems \
you had but did not really give much detail about them. You talk about Weblate being \
much slower than offline tools while not mentioning which parts of the workflow you \
are talking about (admin stuff, translation itself, downloading and uploading PO \
files?).
All of them. There is no need for offline administration, translating every string \
through web interface is several times longer even in the zen mode, "downloading" new \
strings through Subversion then found what to translate in Lokalize takes ~5 seconds, \
analyzing big projects (Fedora is smaller than KDE now) in Weblate takes minutes. \
Uploading big files (libguestfs and its man, libvirt, Weblate docs, etc.) literally \
takes up to 10 minutes for just one file. I can imagine how long it would be to \
upload KStars, Krita and its docs (the last update required several dozens of files \
to be uploaded, the translation itself contains several hundred files), RKWard, \
KMyMoney or LabPlot.
Moreover, Krita developers seems want some kind of CI with ready-to-use packages \
after every translation. I think it's a dream without some kind of powerful cluster \
at hand with the current state of art.
> What leads to the merge conflicts?
Developers, translators, and the automatic merging system working in parallel. Just \
the last example from Hosted Weblate. Two days ago Michal decided to upload new \
translations when I tried to upload my translation. This resulted in automated push \
into the Weblate repo then renewal and locking translation in the web interface. For \
several hours all translations were locked. Should I do not have an offline \
translation, my translations would be lost after Michal resolving the merge conflict \
manually.
Fedora's translations are broken this way almost every week. The only savior is \
that they change very rarely.
The similar GNOME project (DL) is also *very* fragile (broken every month or so).
> Uploading PO files while the same lines have been changed through the online \
interface? You wrote you would have to work with KDE translations "through a web \
interface". What tasks are you referring to when you say "work"? Translation itself \
apparently not, since you say you are aware that you can download and upload PO \
files.
Yes, I am. I do not have an additional hour in a day just to upload ~50-60 changed \
strings in the KDE everyday package. It's not a Fedora with its ~100 new strings in a \
month or GNOME with its average 5 new strings in a day.
> So what is taking so long there? You mention uploading translations takes "~15 \
minutes a day", can you give some details? Are we talking about some maintenance \
stuff or actually contributions to translations? Why do you imply that translations \
themselves are slower with Weblate?
Just try to use Weblate somewhere. Then you will understand. You will lose time on \
every single step - finding what to translate, opening catalog, finding what you need \
to translate, translating, opening the next string, dealing with stupid quality \
checks (absolutely impossible thing on the large catalogs).
> This were some of the questions coming to my mind when I tried to understand \
which problems you face with Weblate. I wrote them down explicitly now, so you \
hopefully can understand better what has been unclear to me. >
> Regarding your question, which I felt was a bit insulting and implying things \
that are not true: There has been a long discussion already that contribution to \
translations should be made easier, possibly by a web-based system like Weblate.
Sorry, but the main role in such discussions is for the people that (guess what?) \
just want to translate one application. For this scale, there will be no substantial \
disadvantages for offline systems. Their shortcomings (low speed, bad scalability) \
comes with good accessibility and some automation.
> This task however is not about that. My question here mainly was why one central \
repository for all translations is needed instead of for example hosting them \
together in each project's repository.
Because of the scale of our project. You've got this answer several times above.
> Currently I have not really seen a reason why that would cause a problem, but \
knowing that I don't know how the entire system is setup, I of course think there \
might be reasons why that is not a good idea. That is why I asked for such reasons.
I'm a scientist. Please give me those numbers that show that Weblate (Transifex, \
Rosetta, etc.) make translation "easier" for translators (e.g. "The XX translation \
service gives the project 2 times more translators and 4 times more translations in \
the long run because it's easy"). Hopefully with your definition of "easier". Thanks \
in advance.
Online translation tools can make access to translation easier (not even in every \
case) but they definitely make the translation process deadly longer. Everything \
comes with its price.
> I prefer to have those discussions factual and hopefully leading to an increase \
of available information to make better decisions. >
> In T13514#237911 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237911>, @woltherav wrote:
>
>> Because they want to change it into something they might have an actual chance \
of understanding? >
>
> Speaking for me, I don't "want to change it", I just want to elaborate possible \
improvements. I guess the benefits of storing PO files in each project's repository \
are clear (but I am willing to enumerate them again). What is not so clear (at least \
to me) are the possible disadvantages or blockers of that concept.
TASK DETAIL
https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514
To: yurchor
Cc: yurchor, zerg, clel, xyquadrat, woltherav, subins2000, huftis, rempt, \
kamathraghavendra, thiagosueto, #localization, dkazakov, nalvarez, aacid, pino, \
ltoscano, aspotashev, fbampaloukas, sdepiets, skadinna, pshinjo
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<table><tr><td style="">yurchor added a comment.
</td></tr></table><br /><div><div><blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #8C98B8;
color: #6B748C;
font-style: italic;
margin: 4px 0 12px 0;
padding: 8px 12px;
background-color: #F8F9FC;">
<div style="font-style: normal;
padding-bottom: 4px;">In <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237939" style="background-color: #e7e7e7; \
border-color: #e7e7e7; border-radius: 3px;
padding: 0 4px;
font-weight: bold;
color: black;text-decoration: none;">T13514#237939</a>, <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/p/clel/" style=" border-color: #f1f7ff;
color: #19558d;
background-color: #f1f7ff;
border: 1px solid transparent;
border-radius: 3px;
font-weight: bold;
padding: 0 4px;">@clel</a> wrote:</div>
<div style="margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 0;
color: rgb(107, 116, 140);"><blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid \
#8C98B8; color: #6B748C;
font-style: italic;
margin: 4px 0 12px 0;
padding: 8px 12px;
background-color: #F8F9FC;">
<div style="font-style: normal;
padding-bottom: 4px;">In <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237910" style="background-color: #e7e7e7; \
border-color: #e7e7e7; border-radius: 3px;
padding: 0 4px;
font-weight: bold;
color: black;text-decoration: none;">T13514#237910</a>, <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/p/yurchor/" style=" border-color: #f1f7ff;
color: #19558d;
background-color: #f1f7ff;
border: 1px solid transparent;
border-radius: 3px;
font-weight: bold;
padding: 0 4px;">@yurchor</a> wrote:</div>
<div style="margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 0;
color: rgb(107, 116, 140);"><blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid \
#8C98B8; color: #6B748C;
font-style: italic;
margin: 4px 0 12px 0;
padding: 8px 12px;
background-color: #F8F9FC;">
<div style="font-style: normal;
padding-bottom: 4px;">In <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237909" style="background-color: #e7e7e7; \
border-color: #e7e7e7; border-radius: 3px;
padding: 0 4px;
font-weight: bold;
color: black;text-decoration: none;">T13514#237909</a>, <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/p/clel/" style=" border-color: #f1f7ff;
color: #19558d;
background-color: #f1f7ff;
border: 1px solid transparent;
border-radius: 3px;
font-weight: bold;
padding: 0 4px;">@clel</a> wrote:</div>
<div style="margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 0;
color: rgb(107, 116, 140);"><p>Alright. Then I don't really understand \
what problems you have with Weblate. The things you wrote are too general for me to \
understand what the concrete problems are that you experience.</p></div> \
</blockquote>
<p>Sure. Just one thing that I do not understand is that people who do not really \
understand how the translation system works eagerly want to change that \
system.</p></div> </blockquote>
<p>When you write "Sure", I expect some more insights :) You wrote about \
problems you had but did not really give much detail about them. You talk about \
Weblate being much slower than offline tools while not mentioning which parts of the \
workflow you are talking about (admin stuff, translation itself, downloading and \
uploading PO files?).</p></div> </blockquote>
<p>All of them. There is no need for offline administration, translating every string \
through web interface is several times longer even in the zen mode, \
"downloading" new strings through Subversion then found what to translate \
in Lokalize takes ~5 seconds, analyzing big projects (Fedora is smaller than KDE now) \
in Weblate takes minutes. Uploading big files (libguestfs and its man, libvirt, \
Weblate docs, etc.) literally takes up to 10 minutes for just one file. I can imagine \
how long it would be to upload KStars, Krita and its docs (the last update required \
several dozens of files to be uploaded, the translation itself contains several \
hundred files), RKWard, KMyMoney or LabPlot.</p>
<p>Moreover, Krita developers seems want some kind of CI with ready-to-use packages \
after every translation. I think it's a dream without some kind of powerful \
cluster at hand with the current state of art.</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #a7b5bf; color: #464c5c; font-style: \
italic; margin: 4px 0 12px 0; padding: 4px 12px; background-color: #f8f9fc;"><p>What \
leads to the merge conflicts?</p></blockquote>
<p>Developers, translators, and the automatic merging system working in parallel. \
Just the last example from Hosted Weblate. Two days ago Michal decided to upload new \
translations when I tried to upload my translation. This resulted in automated push \
into the Weblate repo then renewal and locking translation in the web interface. For \
several hours all translations were locked. Should I do not have an offline \
translation, my translations would be lost after Michal resolving the merge conflict \
manually.</p>
<p>Fedora's translations are broken this way almost every week. The only savior \
is that they change very rarely.</p>
<p>The similar GNOME project (DL) is also *very* fragile (broken every month or \
so).</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #a7b5bf; color: #464c5c; font-style: \
italic; margin: 4px 0 12px 0; padding: 4px 12px; background-color: \
#f8f9fc;"><p>Uploading PO files while the same lines have been changed through the \
online interface? You wrote you would have to work with KDE translations \
"through a web interface". What tasks are you referring to when you say \
"work"? Translation itself apparently not, since you say you are aware that \
you can download and upload PO files.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, I am. I do not have an additional hour in a day just to upload ~50-60 changed \
strings in the KDE everyday package. It's not a Fedora with its ~100 new strings \
in a month or GNOME with its average 5 new strings in a day.</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #a7b5bf; color: #464c5c; font-style: \
italic; margin: 4px 0 12px 0; padding: 4px 12px; background-color: #f8f9fc;"><p>So \
what is taking so long there? You mention uploading translations takes "~15 \
minutes a day", can you give some details? Are we talking about some maintenance \
stuff or actually contributions to translations? Why do you imply that translations \
themselves are slower with Weblate?</p></blockquote>
<p>Just try to use Weblate somewhere. Then you will understand. You will lose time on \
every single step - finding what to translate, opening catalog, finding what you need \
to translate, translating, opening the next string, dealing with stupid quality \
checks (absolutely impossible thing on the large catalogs).</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #a7b5bf; color: #464c5c; font-style: \
italic; margin: 4px 0 12px 0; padding: 4px 12px; background-color: #f8f9fc;"><p>This \
were some of the questions coming to my mind when I tried to understand which \
problems you face with Weblate. I wrote them down explicitly now, so you hopefully \
can understand better what has been unclear to me.</p>
<p>Regarding your question, which I felt was a bit insulting and implying things that \
are not true: There has been a long discussion already that contribution to \
translations should be made easier, possibly by a web-based system like \
Weblate.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sorry, but the main role in such discussions is for the people that (guess what?) \
just want to translate one application. For this scale, there will be no substantial \
disadvantages for offline systems. Their shortcomings (low speed, bad scalability) \
comes with good accessibility and some automation.</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #a7b5bf; color: #464c5c; font-style: \
italic; margin: 4px 0 12px 0; padding: 4px 12px; background-color: #f8f9fc;"><p>This \
task however is not about that. My question here mainly was why one central \
repository for all translations is needed instead of for example hosting them \
together in each project's repository.</p></blockquote>
<p>Because of the scale of our project. You've got this answer several times \
above.</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #a7b5bf; color: #464c5c; font-style: \
italic; margin: 4px 0 12px 0; padding: 4px 12px; background-color: \
#f8f9fc;"><p>Currently I have not really seen a reason why that would cause a \
problem, but knowing that I don't know how the entire system is setup, I of \
course think there might be reasons why that is not a good idea. That is why I asked \
for such reasons.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm a scientist. Please give me those numbers that show that Weblate \
(Transifex, Rosetta, etc.) make translation "easier" for translators (e.g. \
"The XX translation service gives the project 2 times more translators and 4 \
times more translations in the long run because it's easy"). Hopefully with \
your definition of "easier". Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>Online translation tools can make access to translation easier (not even in every \
case) but they definitely make the translation process deadly longer. Everything \
comes with its price.</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #a7b5bf; color: #464c5c; font-style: \
italic; margin: 4px 0 12px 0; padding: 4px 12px; background-color: #f8f9fc;"><p>I \
prefer to have those discussions factual and hopefully leading to an increase of \
available information to make better decisions.</p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid #8C98B8;
color: #6B748C;
font-style: italic;
margin: 4px 0 12px 0;
padding: 8px 12px;
background-color: #F8F9FC;">
<div style="font-style: normal;
padding-bottom: 4px;">In <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514#237911" style="background-color: #e7e7e7; \
border-color: #e7e7e7; border-radius: 3px;
padding: 0 4px;
font-weight: bold;
color: black;text-decoration: none;">T13514#237911</a>, <a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/p/woltherav/" style=" border-color: #f1f7ff;
color: #19558d;
background-color: #f1f7ff;
border: 1px solid transparent;
border-radius: 3px;
font-weight: bold;
padding: 0 4px;">@woltherav</a> wrote:</div>
<div style="margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 0;
color: rgb(107, 116, 140);"><p>Because they want to change it into \
something they might have an actual chance of understanding?</p></div> </blockquote>
<p>Speaking for me, I don't "want to change it", I just want to \
elaborate possible improvements. I guess the benefits of storing PO files in each \
project's repository are clear (but I am willing to enumerate them again). What \
is not so clear (at least to me) are the possible disadvantages or blockers of that \
concept.</p></blockquote>
</div></div><br /><div><strong>TASK DETAIL</strong><div><a \
href="https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514">https://phabricator.kde.org/T13514</a></div></div><br \
/><div><strong>To: </strong>yurchor<br /><strong>Cc: </strong>yurchor, zerg, clel, \
xyquadrat, woltherav, subins2000, huftis, rempt, kamathraghavendra, thiagosueto, \
Localization, dkazakov, nalvarez, aacid, pino, ltoscano, aspotashev, fbampaloukas, \
sdepiets, skadinna, pshinjo<br /></div>
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