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List: kde-i18n-doc
Subject: Re: More about the piedmontese language
From: <albertoserra () ukr ! net>
Date: 2005-05-28 11:07:43
Message-ID: 00aa01c56375$aebb96a0$022aa8c0 () win2000
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Hi Rico!
> I for one am quite sure no one speaks _only_ Piedmontese dialect, and people
> speaking it natively (i.e. better than Italian) are probably never to come
> anywhere near a computer. I am a Piedmontese of Arona, "the pearl of
> Verbano" (line sponsored by our local tourist board ;-), and know a few
> things of the area. In any case we refer to it as "dialect".
Yes, I was born not faraway from your place (Biella), although my family is from the \
center (Monfra) so I know the local situation. Still, it's a "local" thing. What I \
can tell you is that we refer to our mother language as a “language”, and use it as \
such. Besides, the Ukrainian language used to be defined as a “dialect” by Polish and \
Russian governments. After getting close to extinction is now spoken by some 40% of \
the Ukrainian population. There is no such thing as a “dialect”, unless you talk \
about a different usage of the very same language, on the condition that dialects \
remain understandable to each other. Otherwise you are going to call “dialects” all \
the romance languages, just because they have common roots for both grammar and \
dictionary. But even in that case you are going to have a hard time in finding out a \
way to normalize those “verbal pronouns” used by us Piedmontese speakers into a \
common European “dialect”. It takes but one look at our grammar, and it immediately \
becomes clear that the word "dialect" is totally out of place.
> Usage of dialect is
> considered all but xenophobic, and its "revival" by political movements whose
> leaders have suggested to shoot or shell African immigrants has not improved
> its status. Even these politicians, however, hold their speeches in Italian,
> not dialect (with some rare exceptions).
My judgment about politics and politicians is even more radical than yours. I simply \
wish they started to find a way to make a living without hiding behind my linguistic \
identity. Besides, in my 45 years of life I never voted for the right wings. That’s \
just to make it clear. Still I know that the argument is often considered taboo, in a \
sort of reverse racism. I can speak Neapolitan (and I like to do it, although I have \
a pretty poor accent) or Arabic and be considered witty, but if I use the language in \
which my thoughts are formed I am a racist. Sorry, I’m fed up with it, and so are \
many of us, no matter what their political views. It’s just a matter of civil rights, \
not a matter of being better or worse than anybody else. :(
> if anyone knows where "Zenitk" could be a
> normal surname, that would really solve a mistery ;-)
The final TK seems to be the result of some old transcription to Latin chars. The Z \
is likely to be a harsh S (as in the Italian “rosa”, I assume you cannot read \
Piedmontese, so I will avoid using it for examples) more than a Z, as it would be in \
Italian. Besides, if your family came in the area at the time when Piedmontese was \
used as a State language (until the French revolution, along with all the other local \
languages, Latin, Italian and French), than it should have been possible to use the \
char Z, which in our alphabet gets used to represent an initial harsh S.
What you get is Zenit, or *Zenik*, the latter being a fairly common surname…here in \
Ukraine. Not that surprising, though, as Western Ukraine was a part of Austria, and \
Austria had its other border not too far from Arona. So the chance for an ethnically \
Ukraine Austrian soldier to remain in Arona was pretty high, especially right after \
Bonaparte’s fall, when we restored the Piedmontese state but were under Austrain \
military occupation for a while. I am not aware of a way to express such an initial \
sound using the Italian alphabet, so I guess you have no chance for you to restore \
your surname to its original sound, but you could take the final TH away, as the \
original sound most probably was that of a plain K.
It’s going to be extremely difficult for you to locate your roots in here, as most of \
the archives have been lost during the period of wars and revolutions. Possibly the \
best chance would be to trace back your family tree until the first appearance of the \
surname in your area (which should be possible for free, just by using church \
registers), then try and locate the Austrian military registers of that period, which \
should still exist. At that point, you would know where to start from here, in the \
East. If you do not expect immediate results and just spend a week a year in your \
chase, then you are likely to find out a lot, in some 20 years or so. Looking for \
roots is an interesting sport, just do not be in a hurry, because it’s a *slow* \
thing. :)
> In any case, you can request your name to be changed if there is a reason for
> it. Not sure about the procedure though, but there's a lot of bureaucracy
> involved.
Come on, you perfectly know that the Italians authorities would define my request as \
“antinational” (no, they would say I am a racist LOL). The refusal is either going to \
come from fascists or communists, but, to quote Led Zep "the song remains the same". \
:))) Besides, I do not see why to give them tons of my hard-earned money, just to be \
finally refused. I’d rather change passport and have the matter settled for free. ;)
> This was largely a stunt by the previous regional government.
If you talk about schools, then I have poor visibility on the local matters. If you \
talk about literature, grammars and vocabularies, then you are wrong, but probably \
this would lead us totally off topic. I am ready to provide you with lists of \
books/libraries on a private exchange basis, though. Besides, the funny thing about \
all this, is that an Ukrainian of Piedmontese origin talks about such things with a \
Piedmontese of probable Ukrainian origin. Isn’t the world a mad place? LOL
> Most people will consider it outright ludicrous.
It’s a big mistake. :( Racism came out because people were not given the chance to \
speak their language.If the southern guys had been properly taught in schools to \
speak local languages (including their own) Italy would have not become a place where \
people despise each other that much. And by learning proper grammars, people would \
have understood why using a construction is speaking a language, while another \
construction is proper to another language. Yet I know that it’s impossible to speak \
about such things in Italy, because every scientific data immediately becomes a case \
for political hysteria (from both sides). Besides, teaching piedmontese would also \
mean teaching history, and explaining to the locals how many of the words they use \
are actually… Arabic. Things and languages are neutral, it is people using them to \
kill each other.
> Furthermore, there is far from a single dialect covering the whole region: in
> Arona, we speak a sort of varesotto/milanese/ossolano pidgin, in the Gran
> Paradiso area I have heard French constructs built on Italian words ("il fa
> d'andar..."),
The Piedmontese language does include a number of dialects, the grammars usually \
account for it. Thank God, being free from the need to use our language for political \
reasons also means we can respect local varieties, by giving them all the same \
dignity. The number of local languages in Piedmont accounts to 5, AFAIK.
-PIEMONTEIS (with all its dialects)
-OCITAN (at least in 3 varieties, including the Nissard, which is spoken in the parts \
of Piedmont that now belong to France)
-ARPITAN (mostly in the Gran Paradis area, in Savoy and closer the Aosta Valley)
-WALSER (in your area and on the Swiss side of the Alps)
-RAKARASSA ROMANES (the language of the piedmontese Sinti, the gypsies)
There might have been a local Jewish language, but we never succeeded in finding real \
written evidences of it. One of the worst deeds of the past govt was into completely \
forgetting about the Sinti, by reducing the number of "local" languages to 4. Now \
this is *very* stupid, and ungrateful, too. The most uncorrupted spoken version of \
our own Piedmontese language was saved by these very people, the Sinti, to whom we \
owe the chance to restore the language after 150 of decay. Once again, the best thing \
local politicians of both sides can do, is to keep their big mouths shut, because any \
time they speak, they say idiotic things. Language matters should be addressed by \
competent people, not by guys who only advertise themselves.
The history of Piedmont is the history of a multiethnic state, which succeeded in \
respecting all of its member cultures until we got imperialists and began to “make \
Italy” (by slaughtering some 10 to 20% of the civil unarmed population of Southern \
Italy, in the name of Progress). Southern officers were deliberately killed by \
starvation in thousands, at Fort Fenestrelle, and their corpses were chemically \
dissolved, not to waste space and time for the burials, while not even a list of the \
names was kept. I am teaching my kids how bad a Piedmontese may be, along with the \
pride for their native culture. I tend to consider that more sincerity about these \
“forgotten” matters would only help in building a peaceful society.
> Not that I don't believe you, but who in the world does business in
> Piedmontese? I'm genuinely curious.
LOL If you lived in a country where every phone is listened to, you would LOVE to \
speak a rare language. Besides, emails get read in the West no less than they are \
read here. So we like to make business among Piedmontese speakers across the planet \
not because we are racists, but because we can have a wonderful privacy level, even \
without learning to use PGP. It’s many of us on the planet, and we are often quite \
annoyed by the fact that "italian Piedmontese" people tend to consider that they have \
a monopoly on decision regarding our common culture. I guess this is a problem common \
to all diasporas, reading some Jewish literature on the subject can be quite \
enlighting. :)))
On the practical linguistic side, you will find a piedmontese mailing list at \
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piemontviv/ and a magazine at www.e-opinion.info Take \
a look at them, before thinking that everyone speaking Piedmontese is a monster. And \
before thinking that we all live in Italy and that we all manage cows for a living \
(not that I would not like it, it's just the economic side of it that worries me). \
:))))))))
> I did work out a "universal" (well, at least for Latin characters) keyboard
> some time ago, and still type with it. See:
> http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linuxkla
> there is a not-so-cluttered Italian version (that should include dialects and
> minority languages):
> http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI
> in any case, look at the .Xmodmap file if you want to create yours. Unicode is
> your friend.
Thanks, I will. I am tired of using the & trick to produce an HTML file I can copy as \
normal text.
> I don't think there is a large target of users for a Piedmontese l10n;
That’s something I can hardly deny. Most users are and will remain on Windows.
> - I would prefer to avoid splitting the translation
> efforts…. We agreed it's better to focus on
> something everybody in Italy can use.
It makes sense to me. If us, the Piedmontese speakers, want to have such a \
translation, we are supposed to make it ourselves. All I ask for is the technical \
chance to do it, by adding files during the compilation process.
> - Usage of dialect is currently heavily loaded
> with political meaning.
Once again, why should this affect us foreign residents? We can sympathize with you, \
but don't throw your trouble on us, please.
> This is all a voluntary project; if you think you
> can support such an effort, by all means go on.
It’s not going to be me, personally. I am already working on the free courses of \
Piedmontese language for Slavic immigrants, I write for the Piedmontese community and \
I also have to make some money to feed my family. But we shall find someone who has \
the time for this.
> Translating KDE is a HUGE load of work,
> and it takes quite a team to do it.
Yes, I am aware of that. Still, it’s not going to be as bad as it would be if we were \
expected to translate Windows, right?
Salut-me nostre Alp, che mi i j'hai sempe ant el cheur ;)
Cereja
Berto
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Hi Rico!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>I for one am quite sure no one speaks
_only_ Piedmontese dialect, and people <BR>>speaking it natively (i.e. better
than Italian) are probably never to come <BR>>anywhere near a computer. I am
a Piedmontese of Arona, "the pearl of <BR>>Verbano" (line sponsored by our
local tourist board ;-), and know a few <BR>>things of the area. In any case
we refer to it as "dialect".</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Yes, I was born not faraway from your place
(Biella), although my family is from the center (Monfrà) so I know the local
situation. Still, it's a "local" thing. What I can tell you is that we refer to
our mother language as a “language”, and use it as such. <SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; \
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; \
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Besides, the Ukrainian language used to be defined as a \
“dialect” by Polish and Russian governments. <SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; \
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; \
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">After getting close to extinction is now spoken by some \
40% of the Ukrainian population. </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; \
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; \
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">There is no such thing as a “dialect”, unless you talk \
about a different usage of the very same language, on the condition that dialects \
remain understandable to each other. Otherwise you are going to call “dialects” all \
the romance languages, just because they have common roots for both grammar and \
dictionary. But even in that case you are going to have a hard time in finding out a \
way to normalize those “verbal pronouns” used by us Piedmontese speakers into a \
common European “dialect”. It takes but one look at our grammar, and it \
immediately becomes clear that the word "dialect" is totally out of \
place.</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> Usage of dialect is <BR>>considered all
but xenophobic, and its "revival" by political movements whose <BR>>leaders
have suggested to shoot or shell African immigrants has not improved <BR>>its
status. Even these politicians, however, hold their speeches in Italian,
<BR>>not dialect (with some rare exceptions).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">My judgment about politics and politicians is
even more radical than yours. I simply wish they started to find a way to make a
living without hiding behind my linguistic identity. Besides, in my 45
years of life I never voted for the right wings. That’s just to make it
clear. Still I know that the argument is often considered taboo, in a sort
of reverse racism. I can speak Neapolitan (and I like to do it, although I have
a pretty poor accent) or Arabic and be considered witty, but if I use the
language in which my thoughts are formed I am a racist. Sorry, I’m fed up with
it, and so are many of us, no matter what their political views. It’s just a
matter of civil rights, not a matter of being better or worse than anybody else.
> (</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>if anyone knows where "Zenitk" could be a
<BR>>normal surname, that would really solve a mistery
;-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The final TK seems to be the result
of some old transcription to Latin chars. The Z is likely to be a harsh S (as in
the Italian “rosa”, I assume you cannot read Piedmontese, so I will avoid using
it for examples) more than a Z, as it would be in Italian. Besides, if your
family came in the area at the time when Piedmontese was used as a State
language (until the French revolution, along with all the other local languages,
Latin, Italian and French), than it should have been possible to use the
char Z, which in our alphabet gets used to represent an initial harsh S.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">What you get is Zenit, or *Zenik*, the
latter being a fairly common surname…here in Ukraine. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Not that surprising, though, as Western
Ukraine was a part of Austria, and Austria had its other border not too far from
Arona. So the chance for an ethnically Ukraine Austrian soldier to remain in
Arona was pretty high, especially right after Bonaparte’s fall, when we restored
the Piedmontese state but were under Austrain military occupation for a while.
</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I am not aware of a way
to express such an initial sound using the Italian alphabet, so I guess you have
no chance for you to restore your surname to its original sound, but you could
take the final TH away, as the original sound most probably was that of a plain
K. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; \
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; \
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">It’s going to be extremely difficult for you to locate \
your roots in here, as most of the archives have been lost during the period of wars \
and revolutions. Possibly the best chance would be to trace back your family tree \
until the first appearance of the surname in your area (which should be possible for \
free, just by using church registers), then try and locate the Austrian military \
registers of that period, which should still exist. At that point, you would know \
where to start from here, in the East. If you do not expect immediate results and \
just spend a week a year in your chase, then you are likely to find out a lot, in
some 20 years or so. Looking for roots is an interesting sport, just do not be
in a hurry, because it’s a *slow* thing. :)</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; \
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; \
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: \
0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>In any case, you \
can request your name to be changed if there is a reason for <BR>>it. Not sure \
about the procedure though, but there's a lot of bureaucracy \
<BR>>involved.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm \
0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Come on, you perfectly know \
that the Italians authorities would define my request as “antinational” (no, they \
would say I am a racist LOL). The refusal is either going to come \
from fascists or communists, but, to quote Led Zep "the song remains the same". \
:))) Besides, I do not see why to give them tons of my hard-earned money, just to be \
finally refused. I’d rather change passport and have the matter settled for free. ;) \
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>This was largely a stunt by the previous
regional government. <BR>If you talk about schools, then I have poor visibility
on the local matters. If you talk about literature, grammars and vocabularies,
then you are wrong, but probably this would lead us totally off topic. I am
ready to provide you with lists of books/libraries on a private exchange basis,
though. Besides, the funny thing about all this, is that an Ukrainian of
Piedmontese origin talks about such things with a Piedmontese of
probable Ukrainian origin. Isn’t the world a mad place? LOL</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><BR>>Most people will consider it outright
ludicrous. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">It’s a big mistake. :( Racism came out because
people were not given the chance to speak their language.If the southern
guys had been properly taught in schools to speak local languages (including
their own) Italy would have not become a place where people despise each
other that much. And by learning proper grammars, people would have understood
why using a construction is speaking a language, while another construction is
proper to another language. Yet I know that it’s impossible to speak
about such things in Italy, because every scientific data immediately
becomes a case for political hysteria (from both sides). Besides, teaching
piedmontese would also mean teaching history, and explaining to the locals how
many of the words they use are actually… Arabic. Things and languages are
neutral, it is people using them to kill each other. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>Furthermore, there is far from a single
dialect covering the whole region: in <BR>>Arona, we speak a sort of
varesotto/milanese/ossolano pidgin, in the Gran <BR>>Paradiso area I have
heard French constructs built on Italian words ("il fa <BR>>d'andar..."),
<BR>The Piedmontese language does include a number of dialects, the grammars
usually account for it. Thank God, being free from the need to use our language
for political reasons also means we can respect local varieties, by giving them
all the same dignity. The number of local languages in Piedmont accounts to 5,
AFAIK. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-PIEMONTÈIS (with all its
dialects)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-OCITAN (at least in 3 varieties, including the
Nissard, which is spoken in the parts of Piedmont that now belong to
France)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-ARPITAN (mostly in the Gran Paradis area, in
Savoy and closer the Aosta Valley)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-WALSER (in your area and on the Swiss side of
the Alps)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-RAKARÁSSA ROMANÉS (the language of the
piedmontese Sinti, the gypsies)</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">There might have been a local Jewish language,
but we never succeeded in finding real written evidences of it. One of the worst
deeds of the past govt was into completely forgetting about the Sinti, by
reducing the number of "local" languages to 4. Now this is *very* stupid, and
ungrateful, too. The most uncorrupted spoken version of our own Piedmontese
language was saved by these very people, the Sinti, to whom we owe the chance to
restore the language after 150 of decay. Once again, the best thing local
politicians of both sides can do, is to keep their big mouths shut, because any
time they speak, they say idiotic things. Language matters should be addressed
by competent people, not by guys who only advertise themselves.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The history of Piedmont is the history of a
multiethnic state, which succeeded in respecting all of its member cultures
until we got imperialists and began to “make Italy” (by slaughtering some 10 to
20% of the civil unarmed population of Southern Italy, in the name of Progress).
Southern officers were deliberately killed by starvation in thousands, at Fort
Fenestrelle, and their corpses were chemically dissolved, not to waste space and
time for the burials, while not even a list of the names was kept. I am
teaching my kids how bad a Piedmontese may be, along with the pride for their
native culture. I tend to consider that more sincerity about these “forgotten”
matters would only help in building a peaceful society. </SPAN>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>Not that I don't believe you, but who in
the world does business in <BR>>Piedmontese? I'm genuinely
curious.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">LOL If you lived in a country where every phone
is listened to, you would LOVE to speak a rare language. Besides, emails get
read in the West no less than they are read here. So we like to make business
among Piedmontese speakers across the planet not because we are racists, but
because we can have a wonderful privacy level, even without learning to use PGP.
It’s many of us on the planet, and we are often quite annoyed by the fact that
"italian Piedmontese" people tend to consider that they have a monopoly on
decision regarding our common culture. I guess this is a problem common to all
diasporas, reading some Jewish literature on the subject can be quite
enlighting. :))) </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">On the practical linguistic side, you will
find a piedmontese mailing list at <A
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piemontviv/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piemontviv/</A> \
and a magazine at <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><A
href="http://www.e-opinion.info/">www.e-opinion.info</A> Take a look at them,
before thinking that everyone speaking Piedmontese is a monster. And before
thinking that we all live in Italy and that we all manage cows for a living (not
that I would not like it, it's just the economic side of it that worries me).
> ))))))))<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>I did work out a "universal" (well, at
least for Latin characters) keyboard <BR>>some time ago, and still type with
it. See:<BR>><A
href="http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linuxkla">http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linuxkla</A><BR>>there \
is a not-so-cluttered Italian version (that should include dialects and
<BR>>minority languages):<BR>><A
href="http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI">http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI</A><BR>>in
any case, look at the .Xmodmap file if you want to create yours. Unicode is
<BR>>your friend.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Thanks, I will. I am tired of using the &
trick to produce an HTML file I can copy as normal text.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> I don't think there is a large target of
users for a Piedmontese l10n;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">That’s something I can hardly deny. Most users
are and will remain on Windows.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><BR>>- I would prefer to avoid splitting the
translation <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>efforts…. We agreed it's better to focus on
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>something everybody in Italy can use.<BR>It
makes sense to me. If us, the Piedmontese speakers, want to have such a
translation, we are supposed to make it ourselves. All I ask for is the
technical chance to do it, by adding files during the compilation process.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><BR>>- Usage of dialect is currently heavily
loaded <BR>>with political meaning.<BR>Once again, why should this affect us
foreign residents? We can sympathize with you, but don't throw your
trouble on us, please.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>This is all a voluntary project; if you
think you <BR>>can support such an effort, by all means go on. <BR>It’s not
going to be me, personally. I am already working on the free courses of
Piedmontese language for Slavic immigrants, I write for the Piedmontese
community and I also have to make some money to feed my family. But we shall
find someone who has the time for this.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> Translating KDE is a HUGE load of work,
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>and it takes quite a team to do it.<BR>Yes,
I am aware of that. Still, it’s not going to be as bad as it would be if we were
expected to translate Windows, right? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; \
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; \
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Salut-me nòstre Alp, che mi i j'hai sempe ant ël \
cheur ;)<BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; \
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; \
mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Cereja<BR>Bèrto</SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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