This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C5638E.9E1C2E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rico! >I for one am quite sure no one speaks _only_ Piedmontese dialect, and = people=20 >speaking it natively (i.e. better than Italian) are probably never to = come=20 >anywhere near a computer. I am a Piedmontese of Arona, "the pearl of=20 >Verbano" (line sponsored by our local tourist board ;-), and know a few = >things of the area. In any case we refer to it as "dialect". Yes, I was born not faraway from your place (Biella), although my family = is from the center (Monfra) so I know the local situation. Still, it's a = "local" thing. What I can tell you is that we refer to our mother = language as a =93language=94, and use it as such. Besides, the Ukrainian = language used to be defined as a =93dialect=94 by Polish and Russian = governments. After getting close to extinction is now spoken by some 40% = of the Ukrainian population. There is no such thing as a =93dialect=94, = unless you talk about a different usage of the very same language, on = the condition that dialects remain understandable to each other. = Otherwise you are going to call =93dialects=94 all the romance = languages, just because they have common roots for both grammar and = dictionary. But even in that case you are going to have a hard time in = finding out a way to normalize those =93verbal pronouns=94 used by us = Piedmontese speakers into a common European =93dialect=94. It takes but = one look at our grammar, and it immediately becomes clear that the word = "dialect" is totally out of place. > Usage of dialect is=20 >considered all but xenophobic, and its "revival" by political movements = whose=20 >leaders have suggested to shoot or shell African immigrants has not = improved=20 >its status. Even these politicians, however, hold their speeches in = Italian,=20 >not dialect (with some rare exceptions). My judgment about politics and politicians is even more radical than = yours. I simply wish they started to find a way to make a living without = hiding behind my linguistic identity. Besides, in my 45 years of life I = never voted for the right wings. That=92s just to make it clear. Still I = know that the argument is often considered taboo, in a sort of reverse = racism. I can speak Neapolitan (and I like to do it, although I have a = pretty poor accent) or Arabic and be considered witty, but if I use the = language in which my thoughts are formed I am a racist. Sorry, I=92m fed = up with it, and so are many of us, no matter what their political views. = It=92s just a matter of civil rights, not a matter of being better or = worse than anybody else. :( >if anyone knows where "Zenitk" could be a=20 >normal surname, that would really solve a mistery ;-) The final TK seems to be the result of some old transcription to Latin = chars. The Z is likely to be a harsh S (as in the Italian =93rosa=94, I = assume you cannot read Piedmontese, so I will avoid using it for = examples) more than a Z, as it would be in Italian. Besides, if your = family came in the area at the time when Piedmontese was used as a State = language (until the French revolution, along with all the other local = languages, Latin, Italian and French), than it should have been possible = to use the char Z, which in our alphabet gets used to represent an = initial harsh S.=20 What you get is Zenit, or *Zenik*, the latter being a fairly common = surname=85here in Ukraine. Not that surprising, though, as Western = Ukraine was a part of Austria, and Austria had its other border not too = far from Arona. So the chance for an ethnically Ukraine Austrian soldier = to remain in Arona was pretty high, especially right after Bonaparte=92s = fall, when we restored the Piedmontese state but were under Austrain = military occupation for a while. I am not aware of a way to express such = an initial sound using the Italian alphabet, so I guess you have no = chance for you to restore your surname to its original sound, but you = could take the final TH away, as the original sound most probably was = that of a plain K.=20 It=92s going to be extremely difficult for you to locate your roots in = here, as most of the archives have been lost during the period of wars = and revolutions. Possibly the best chance would be to trace back your = family tree until the first appearance of the surname in your area = (which should be possible for free, just by using church registers), = then try and locate the Austrian military registers of that period, = which should still exist. At that point, you would know where to start = from here, in the East. If you do not expect immediate results and just = spend a week a year in your chase, then you are likely to find out a = lot, in some 20 years or so. Looking for roots is an interesting sport, = just do not be in a hurry, because it=92s a *slow* thing. :) >In any case, you can request your name to be changed if there is a = reason for=20 >it. Not sure about the procedure though, but there's a lot of = bureaucracy=20 >involved. Come on, you perfectly know that the Italians authorities would define = my request as =93antinational=94 (no, they would say I am a racist LOL). = The refusal is either going to come from fascists or communists, but, to = quote Led Zep "the song remains the same". :))) Besides, I do not see = why to give them tons of my hard-earned money, just to be finally = refused. I=92d rather change passport and have the matter settled for = free. ;)=20 >This was largely a stunt by the previous regional government.=20 If you talk about schools, then I have poor visibility on the local = matters. If you talk about literature, grammars and vocabularies, then = you are wrong, but probably this would lead us totally off topic. I am = ready to provide you with lists of books/libraries on a private exchange = basis, though. Besides, the funny thing about all this, is that an = Ukrainian of Piedmontese origin talks about such things with a = Piedmontese of probable Ukrainian origin. Isn=92t the world a mad place? = LOL >Most people will consider it outright ludicrous.=20 It=92s a big mistake. :( Racism came out because people were not given = the chance to speak their language.If the southern guys had been = properly taught in schools to speak local languages (including their = own) Italy would have not become a place where people despise each other = that much. And by learning proper grammars, people would have understood = why using a construction is speaking a language, while another = construction is proper to another language. Yet I know that it=92s = impossible to speak about such things in Italy, because every scientific = data immediately becomes a case for political hysteria (from both = sides). Besides, teaching piedmontese would also mean teaching history, = and explaining to the locals how many of the words they use are = actually=85 Arabic. Things and languages are neutral, it is people using = them to kill each other.=20 =20 >Furthermore, there is far from a single dialect covering the whole = region: in=20 >Arona, we speak a sort of varesotto/milanese/ossolano pidgin, in the = Gran=20 >Paradiso area I have heard French constructs built on Italian words = ("il fa=20 >d'andar..."),=20 The Piedmontese language does include a number of dialects, the grammars = usually account for it. Thank God, being free from the need to use our = language for political reasons also means we can respect local = varieties, by giving them all the same dignity. The number of local = languages in Piedmont accounts to 5, AFAIK.=20 =20 -PIEMONTEIS (with all its dialects) -OCITAN (at least in 3 varieties, including the Nissard, which is spoken = in the parts of Piedmont that now belong to France) -ARPITAN (mostly in the Gran Paradis area, in Savoy and closer the Aosta = Valley) -WALSER (in your area and on the Swiss side of the Alps) -RAKARASSA ROMANES (the language of the piedmontese Sinti, the gypsies) There might have been a local Jewish language, but we never succeeded in = finding real written evidences of it. One of the worst deeds of the past = govt was into completely forgetting about the Sinti, by reducing the = number of "local" languages to 4. Now this is *very* stupid, and = ungrateful, too. The most uncorrupted spoken version of our own = Piedmontese language was saved by these very people, the Sinti, to whom = we owe the chance to restore the language after 150 of decay. Once = again, the best thing local politicians of both sides can do, is to keep = their big mouths shut, because any time they speak, they say idiotic = things. Language matters should be addressed by competent people, not by = guys who only advertise themselves. The history of Piedmont is the history of a multiethnic state, which = succeeded in respecting all of its member cultures until we got = imperialists and began to =93make Italy=94 (by slaughtering some 10 to = 20% of the civil unarmed population of Southern Italy, in the name of = Progress). Southern officers were deliberately killed by starvation in = thousands, at Fort Fenestrelle, and their corpses were chemically = dissolved, not to waste space and time for the burials, while not even a = list of the names was kept. I am teaching my kids how bad a Piedmontese = may be, along with the pride for their native culture. I tend to = consider that more sincerity about these =93forgotten=94 matters would = only help in building a peaceful society. =20 >Not that I don't believe you, but who in the world does business in=20 >Piedmontese? I'm genuinely curious. LOL If you lived in a country where every phone is listened to, you = would LOVE to speak a rare language. Besides, emails get read in the = West no less than they are read here. So we like to make business among = Piedmontese speakers across the planet not because we are racists, but = because we can have a wonderful privacy level, even without learning to = use PGP. It=92s many of us on the planet, and we are often quite annoyed = by the fact that "italian Piedmontese" people tend to consider that they = have a monopoly on decision regarding our common culture. I guess this = is a problem common to all diasporas, reading some Jewish literature on = the subject can be quite enlighting. :)))=20 On the practical linguistic side, you will find a piedmontese mailing = list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piemontviv/ and a magazine at = www.e-opinion.info Take a look at them, before thinking that everyone = speaking Piedmontese is a monster. And before thinking that we all live = in Italy and that we all manage cows for a living (not that I would not = like it, it's just the economic side of it that worries me). :)))))))) >I did work out a "universal" (well, at least for Latin characters) = keyboard=20 >some time ago, and still type with it. See: >http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linuxkla >there is a not-so-cluttered Italian version (that should include = dialects and=20 >minority languages): >http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI >in any case, look at the .Xmodmap file if you want to create yours. = Unicode is=20 >your friend. Thanks, I will. I am tired of using the & trick to produce an HTML file = I can copy as normal text. =20 > I don't think there is a large target of users for a Piedmontese l10n; That=92s something I can hardly deny. Most users are and will remain on = Windows. >- I would prefer to avoid splitting the translation=20 >efforts=85. We agreed it's better to focus on=20 >something everybody in Italy can use. It makes sense to me. If us, the Piedmontese speakers, want to have such = a translation, we are supposed to make it ourselves. All I ask for is = the technical chance to do it, by adding files during the compilation = process.=20 >- Usage of dialect is currently heavily loaded=20 >with political meaning. Once again, why should this affect us foreign residents? We can = sympathize with you, but don't throw your trouble on us, please. >This is all a voluntary project; if you think you=20 >can support such an effort, by all means go on.=20 It=92s not going to be me, personally. I am already working on the free = courses of Piedmontese language for Slavic immigrants, I write for the = Piedmontese community and I also have to make some money to feed my = family. But we shall find someone who has the time for this. =20 > Translating KDE is a HUGE load of work,=20 >and it takes quite a team to do it. Yes, I am aware of that. Still, it=92s not going to be as bad as it = would be if we were expected to translate Windows, right?=20 =20 Salut-me nostre Alp, che mi i j'hai sempe ant el cheur ;) Cereja Berto ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C5638E.9E1C2E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Rico!

 

>I for one am quite sure no one = speaks=20 _only_ Piedmontese dialect, and people
>speaking it natively = (i.e. better=20 than Italian) are probably never to come
>anywhere near a = computer. I am=20 a Piedmontese of Arona, "the pearl of
>Verbano" (line sponsored = by our=20 local tourist board ;-), and know a few
>things of the area. In = any case=20 we refer to it as "dialect".

 

Yes, I was born not faraway from your = place=20 (Biella), although my family is from the center (Monfrà) so I know = the local=20 situation. Still, it's a "local" thing. What I can tell you is that we = refer to=20 our mother language as a =93language=94, and use it as such. Besides,=20 the Ukrainian language used to be defined as a =93dialect=94 by Polish = and Russian=20 governments. After=20 getting close to extinction is now spoken by some 40% of the Ukrainian=20 population. There=20 is no such thing as a =93dialect=94, unless you talk about a different = usage of the=20 very same language, on the condition that dialects remain understandable = to each=20 other. Otherwise you are going to call =93dialects=94 all the romance = languages,=20 just because they have common roots for both grammar and dictionary. But = even in=20 that case you are going to have a hard time in finding out a way to = normalize=20 those =93verbal pronouns=94 used by us Piedmontese speakers into a = common European=20 =93dialect=94. It takes but one look at our grammar, and it = immediately=20 becomes clear that the word "dialect" is totally out of = place.

 

> Usage of dialect is =
>considered all=20 but xenophobic, and its "revival" by political movements whose =
>leaders=20 have suggested to shoot or shell African immigrants has not improved =
>its=20 status. Even these politicians, however, hold their speeches in Italian, =
>not dialect (with some rare exceptions).

My judgment about politics and = politicians is=20 even more radical than yours. I simply wish they started to find a way = to make a=20 living without hiding behind my linguistic identity. Besides, in my = 45=20 years of life I never voted for the right wings. That=92s just to make = it=20 clear. Still I know that the argument is often considered taboo, in = a sort=20 of reverse racism. I can speak Neapolitan (and I like to do it, although = I have=20 a pretty poor accent) or Arabic and be considered witty, but if I = use the=20 language in which my thoughts are formed I am a racist. Sorry, I=92m fed = up with=20 it, and so are many of us, no matter what their political views. It=92s = just a=20 matter of civil rights, not a matter of being better or worse than = anybody else.=20 :(

 

>if anyone knows where "Zenitk" = could be a=20
>normal surname, that would really solve a mistery=20 ;-)

The final TK seems to = be the result=20 of some old transcription to Latin chars. The Z is likely to be a harsh = S (as in=20 the Italian =93rosa=94, I assume you cannot read Piedmontese, so I will = avoid using=20 it for examples) more than a Z, as it would be in Italian. Besides, = if your=20 family came in the area at the time when Piedmontese was used as a State = language (until the French revolution, along with all the other local = languages,=20 Latin, Italian and French), than it should have been possible to = use the=20 char Z, which in our alphabet gets used to represent an initial harsh S. =

 

What you get is Zenit, or *Zenik*, = the=20 latter being a fairly common surname=85here in Ukraine.  Not that surprising, though, as = Western=20 Ukraine was a part of Austria, and Austria had its other border not too = far from=20 Arona. So the chance for an ethnically Ukraine Austrian soldier to = remain in=20 Arona was pretty high, especially right after Bonaparte=92s fall, when = we restored=20 the Piedmontese state but were under Austrain military occupation for a = while.=20 I am not = aware of a way=20 to express such an initial sound using the Italian alphabet, so I guess = you have=20 no chance for you to restore your surname to its original sound, but you = could=20 take the final TH away, as the original sound most probably was that of = a plain=20 K. 

 

It=92s=20 going to be extremely difficult for you to locate your roots in here, as = most of=20 the archives have been lost during the period of wars and revolutions. = Possibly=20 the best chance would be to trace back your family tree until the first=20 appearance of the surname in your area (which should be possible for = free, just=20 by using church registers), then try and locate the Austrian military = registers=20 of that period, which should still exist. At that point, you would know = where to=20 start from here, in the East. If you do not expect immediate results and = just=20 spend a week a year in your chase, then you are likely to find out a = lot, in=20 some 20 years or so. Looking for roots is an interesting sport, just do = not be=20 in a hurry, because it=92s a *slow* thing. :)

 

>In any case, you can request your = name to=20 be changed if there is a reason for
>it. Not sure about the = procedure=20 though, but there's a lot of bureaucracy =
>involved.

Come on, you perfectly know that the = Italians=20 authorities would define my request as =93antinational=94 (no, they = would say I am a=20 racist LOL). The refusal is either going to come from fascists = or=20 communists, but, to quote Led Zep "the song remains the same". :))) = Besides, I=20 do not see why to give them tons of my hard-earned money, just to be = finally=20 refused. I=92d rather change passport and have the matter settled for = free. ;)=20

 

>This was largely a stunt by the = previous=20 regional government.
If you talk about schools, then I have poor = visibility=20 on the local matters. If you talk about literature, grammars and = vocabularies,=20 then you are wrong, but probably this would lead us totally off topic. I = am=20 ready to provide you with lists of books/libraries on a private exchange = basis,=20 though. Besides, the funny thing about all this, is that an Ukrainian of = Piedmontese origin talks about such things with a = Piedmontese of=20 probable Ukrainian origin. Isn=92t the world a mad place? LOL


>Most people will consider it = outright=20 ludicrous.

It=92s a big mistake. :( Racism came = out because=20 people were not given the chance to speak their language.If the = southern=20 guys had been properly taught in schools to speak local languages = (including=20 their own) Italy would have not become a place where people despise = each=20 other that much. And by learning proper grammars, people would have = understood=20 why using a construction is speaking a language, while another = construction is=20 proper to another language. Yet I know that it=92s impossible = to speak=20 about such things in Italy, because every scientific data = immediately=20 becomes a case for political hysteria (from both sides). Besides, = teaching=20 piedmontese would also mean teaching history, and explaining to the = locals how=20 many of the words they use are actually=85 Arabic. Things and languages = are=20 neutral, it is people using them to kill each other.

 

>Furthermore, there is far from a = single=20 dialect covering the whole region: in
>Arona, we speak a sort of=20 varesotto/milanese/ossolano pidgin, in the Gran
>Paradiso area I = have=20 heard French constructs built on Italian words ("il fa =
>d'andar..."),=20
The Piedmontese language does include a number of dialects, the = grammars=20 usually account for it. Thank God, being free from the need to use our = language=20 for political reasons also means we can respect local varieties, by = giving them=20 all the same dignity. The number of local languages in Piedmont accounts = to 5,=20 AFAIK.

 

-PIEMONTÈIS (with all its=20 dialects)

-OCITAN (at least in 3 varieties, = including the=20 Nissard, which is spoken in the parts of Piedmont that now belong to=20 France)

-ARPITAN (mostly in the Gran Paradis = area, in=20 Savoy and closer the Aosta Valley)

-WALSER (in your area and on the = Swiss side of=20 the Alps)

-RAKARÁSSA ROMANÉS (the = language of the=20 piedmontese Sinti, the gypsies)

 

There might have been a local Jewish = language,=20 but we never succeeded in finding real written evidences of it. One of = the worst=20 deeds of the past govt was into completely forgetting about the Sinti, = by=20 reducing the number of "local" languages to 4. Now this is *very* = stupid, and=20 ungrateful, too. The most uncorrupted spoken version of our own = Piedmontese=20 language was saved by these very people, the Sinti, to whom we owe the = chance to=20 restore the language after 150 of decay. Once again, the best thing = local=20 politicians of both sides can do, is to keep their big mouths shut, = because any=20 time they speak, they say idiotic things. Language matters should be = addressed=20 by competent people, not by guys who only advertise = themselves.

 

The history of Piedmont is the = history of a=20 multiethnic state, which succeeded in respecting all of its member = cultures=20 until we got imperialists and began to =93make Italy=94 (by slaughtering = some 10 to=20 20% of the civil unarmed population of Southern Italy, in the name of = Progress).=20 Southern officers were deliberately killed by starvation in thousands, = at Fort=20 Fenestrelle, and their corpses were chemically dissolved, not to waste = space and=20 time for the burials, while not even a list of the names was = kept. I am=20 teaching my kids how bad a Piedmontese may be, along with the pride for = their=20 native culture. I tend to consider that more sincerity about these = =93forgotten=94=20 matters would only help in building a peaceful society. 

>Not that I don't believe you, but = who in=20 the world does business in
>Piedmontese? I'm genuinely=20 curious.

LOL If you lived in a country where = every phone=20 is listened to, you would LOVE to speak a rare language. Besides, emails = get=20 read in the West no less than they are read here. So we like to make = business=20 among Piedmontese speakers across the planet not because we are racists, = but=20 because we can have a wonderful privacy level, even without learning to = use PGP.=20 It=92s many of us on the planet, and we are often quite annoyed by the = fact that=20 "italian Piedmontese" people tend to consider that they have a monopoly = on=20 decision regarding our common culture. I guess this is a problem common = to all=20 diasporas, reading some Jewish literature on the subject can be quite=20 enlighting. :)))

 

On the practical linguistic side, = you will=20 find a piedmontese mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.co= m/group/piemontviv/=20 and a magazine at  www.e-opinion.info Take a look = at them,=20 before thinking that everyone speaking Piedmontese is a monster. And = before=20 thinking that we all live in Italy and that we all manage cows for a = living (not=20 that I would not like it, it's just the economic side of it that worries = me).=20 :))))))))

 

>I did work out a "universal" = (well, at=20 least for Latin characters) keyboard
>some time ago, and still = type with=20 it. See:
>http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linux= kla
>there=20 is a not-so-cluttered Italian version (that should include dialects and=20
>minority languages):
>http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI>in=20 any case, look at the .Xmodmap file if you want to create yours. Unicode = is=20
>your friend.

Thanks, I will. I am tired of using = the &=20 trick to produce an HTML file I can copy as normal = text.

 

> I don't think there is a large = target of=20 users for a Piedmontese l10n;

That=92s something I can hardly deny. = Most users=20 are and will remain on Windows.


>- I would prefer to avoid = splitting the=20 translation

>efforts=85. We agreed it's better = to focus on=20

>something everybody in Italy can = use.
It=20 makes sense to me. If us, the Piedmontese speakers, want to have such a=20 translation, we are supposed to make it ourselves. All I ask for is the=20 technical chance to do it, by adding files during the compilation = process.=20


>- Usage of dialect is = currently heavily=20 loaded
>with political meaning.
Once again, why should this = affect us=20 foreign residents? We can sympathize with you, but don't throw your = trouble on us, please.

 

>This is all a voluntary project; = if you=20 think you
>can support such an effort, by all means go on. =
It=92s not=20 going to be me, personally. I am already working on the free courses of=20 Piedmontese language for Slavic immigrants, I write for the Piedmontese=20 community and I also have to make some money to feed my family. But we = shall=20 find someone who has the time for this.

 

> Translating KDE is a HUGE load = of work,=20

>and it takes quite a team to do = it.
Yes,=20 I am aware of that. Still, it=92s not going to be as bad as it would be = if we were=20 expected to translate Windows, right?

 

Salut-me=20 nòstre Alp, che mi i j'hai sempe ant ël cheur = ;)
Cereja
Bèrto
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