[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]
List: kde-i18n-doc
Subject: Re: More about the piedmontese language
From: <albertoserra () ukr ! net>
Date: 2005-05-28 11:07:43
Message-ID: 00aa01c56375$aebb96a0$022aa8c0 () win2000
[Download RAW message or body]
Hi Rico!
> I for one am quite sure no one speaks _only_ Piedmontese dialect, and \
> people speaking it natively (i.e. better than Italian) are probably \
> never to come anywhere near a computer. I am a Piedmontese of Arona, \
> "the pearl of Verbano" (line sponsored by our local tourist board ;-), \
> and know a few things of the area. In any case we refer to it as \
> "dialect".
Yes, I was born not faraway from your place (Biella), although my family is \
from the center (Monfra) so I know the local situation. Still, it's a \
"local" thing. What I can tell you is that we refer to our mother language \
as a “language”, and use it as such. Besides, the Ukrainian language used \
to be defined as a “dialect” by Polish and Russian governments. After \
getting close to extinction is now spoken by some 40% of the Ukrainian \
population. There is no such thing as a “dialect”, unless you talk about a \
different usage of the very same language, on the condition that dialects \
remain understandable to each other. Otherwise you are going to call \
“dialects” all the romance languages, just because they have common roots \
for both grammar and dictionary. But even in that case you are going to \
have a hard time in finding out a way to normalize those “verbal pronouns” \
used by us Piedmontese speakers into a common European “dialect”. It takes \
but one look at our grammar, and it immediately becomes clear that the word \
"dialect" is totally out of place.
> Usage of dialect is
> considered all but xenophobic, and its "revival" by political movements \
> whose leaders have suggested to shoot or shell African immigrants has \
> not improved its status. Even these politicians, however, hold their \
> speeches in Italian, not dialect (with some rare exceptions).
My judgment about politics and politicians is even more radical than yours. \
I simply wish they started to find a way to make a living without hiding \
behind my linguistic identity. Besides, in my 45 years of life I never \
voted for the right wings. That’s just to make it clear. Still I know that \
the argument is often considered taboo, in a sort of reverse racism. I can \
speak Neapolitan (and I like to do it, although I have a pretty poor \
accent) or Arabic and be considered witty, but if I use the language in \
which my thoughts are formed I am a racist. Sorry, I’m fed up with it, and \
so are many of us, no matter what their political views. It’s just a matter \
of civil rights, not a matter of being better or worse than anybody else. \
:(
> if anyone knows where "Zenitk" could be a
> normal surname, that would really solve a mistery ;-)
The final TK seems to be the result of some old transcription to Latin \
chars. The Z is likely to be a harsh S (as in the Italian “rosa”, I assume \
you cannot read Piedmontese, so I will avoid using it for examples) more \
than a Z, as it would be in Italian. Besides, if your family came in the \
area at the time when Piedmontese was used as a State language (until the \
French revolution, along with all the other local languages, Latin, Italian \
and French), than it should have been possible to use the char Z, which in \
our alphabet gets used to represent an initial harsh S.
What you get is Zenit, or *Zenik*, the latter being a fairly common \
surname…here in Ukraine. Not that surprising, though, as Western Ukraine \
was a part of Austria, and Austria had its other border not too far from \
Arona. So the chance for an ethnically Ukraine Austrian soldier to remain \
in Arona was pretty high, especially right after Bonaparte’s fall, when we \
restored the Piedmontese state but were under Austrain military occupation \
for a while. I am not aware of a way to express such an initial sound using \
the Italian alphabet, so I guess you have no chance for you to restore your \
surname to its original sound, but you could take the final TH away, as the \
original sound most probably was that of a plain K.
It’s going to be extremely difficult for you to locate your roots in here, \
as most of the archives have been lost during the period of wars and \
revolutions. Possibly the best chance would be to trace back your family \
tree until the first appearance of the surname in your area (which should \
be possible for free, just by using church registers), then try and locate \
the Austrian military registers of that period, which should still exist. \
At that point, you would know where to start from here, in the East. If you \
do not expect immediate results and just spend a week a year in your chase, \
then you are likely to find out a lot, in some 20 years or so. Looking for \
roots is an interesting sport, just do not be in a hurry, because it’s a \
*slow* thing. :)
> In any case, you can request your name to be changed if there is a reason \
> for it. Not sure about the procedure though, but there's a lot of \
> bureaucracy involved.
Come on, you perfectly know that the Italians authorities would define my \
request as “antinational” (no, they would say I am a racist LOL). The \
refusal is either going to come from fascists or communists, but, to quote \
Led Zep "the song remains the same". :))) Besides, I do not see why to give \
them tons of my hard-earned money, just to be finally refused. I’d rather \
change passport and have the matter settled for free. ;)
> This was largely a stunt by the previous regional government.
If you talk about schools, then I have poor visibility on the local \
matters. If you talk about literature, grammars and vocabularies, then you \
are wrong, but probably this would lead us totally off topic. I am ready to \
provide you with lists of books/libraries on a private exchange basis, \
though. Besides, the funny thing about all this, is that an Ukrainian of \
Piedmontese origin talks about such things with a Piedmontese of probable \
Ukrainian origin. Isn’t the world a mad place? LOL
> Most people will consider it outright ludicrous.
It’s a big mistake. :( Racism came out because people were not given the \
chance to speak their language.If the southern guys had been properly \
taught in schools to speak local languages (including their own) Italy \
would have not become a place where people despise each other that much. \
And by learning proper grammars, people would have understood why using a \
construction is speaking a language, while another construction is proper \
to another language. Yet I know that it’s impossible to speak about such \
things in Italy, because every scientific data immediately becomes a case \
for political hysteria (from both sides). Besides, teaching piedmontese \
would also mean teaching history, and explaining to the locals how many of \
the words they use are actually… Arabic. Things and languages are neutral, \
it is people using them to kill each other.
> Furthermore, there is far from a single dialect covering the whole \
> region: in Arona, we speak a sort of varesotto/milanese/ossolano pidgin, \
> in the Gran Paradiso area I have heard French constructs built on \
> Italian words ("il fa d'andar..."),
The Piedmontese language does include a number of dialects, the grammars \
usually account for it. Thank God, being free from the need to use our \
language for political reasons also means we can respect local varieties, \
by giving them all the same dignity. The number of local languages in \
Piedmont accounts to 5, AFAIK.
-PIEMONTEIS (with all its dialects)
-OCITAN (at least in 3 varieties, including the Nissard, which is spoken in \
the parts of Piedmont that now belong to France)
-ARPITAN (mostly in the Gran Paradis area, in Savoy and closer the Aosta \
Valley)
-WALSER (in your area and on the Swiss side of the Alps)
-RAKARASSA ROMANES (the language of the piedmontese Sinti, the gypsies)
There might have been a local Jewish language, but we never succeeded in \
finding real written evidences of it. One of the worst deeds of the past \
govt was into completely forgetting about the Sinti, by reducing the number \
of "local" languages to 4. Now this is *very* stupid, and ungrateful, too. \
The most uncorrupted spoken version of our own Piedmontese language was \
saved by these very people, the Sinti, to whom we owe the chance to restore \
the language after 150 of decay. Once again, the best thing local \
politicians of both sides can do, is to keep their big mouths shut, because \
any time they speak, they say idiotic things. Language matters should be \
addressed by competent people, not by guys who only advertise themselves.
The history of Piedmont is the history of a multiethnic state, which \
succeeded in respecting all of its member cultures until we got \
imperialists and began to “make Italy” (by slaughtering some 10 to 20% of \
the civil unarmed population of Southern Italy, in the name of Progress). \
Southern officers were deliberately killed by starvation in thousands, at \
Fort Fenestrelle, and their corpses were chemically dissolved, not to waste \
space and time for the burials, while not even a list of the names was \
kept. I am teaching my kids how bad a Piedmontese may be, along with the \
pride for their native culture. I tend to consider that more sincerity \
about these “forgotten” matters would only help in building a peaceful \
society.
> Not that I don't believe you, but who in the world does business in
> Piedmontese? I'm genuinely curious.
LOL If you lived in a country where every phone is listened to, you would \
LOVE to speak a rare language. Besides, emails get read in the West no less \
than they are read here. So we like to make business among Piedmontese \
speakers across the planet not because we are racists, but because we can \
have a wonderful privacy level, even without learning to use PGP. It’s many \
of us on the planet, and we are often quite annoyed by the fact that \
"italian Piedmontese" people tend to consider that they have a monopoly on \
decision regarding our common culture. I guess this is a problem common to \
all diasporas, reading some Jewish literature on the subject can be quite \
enlighting. :)))
On the practical linguistic side, you will find a piedmontese mailing list \
at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piemontviv/ and a magazine at \
www.e-opinion.info Take a look at them, before thinking that everyone \
speaking Piedmontese is a monster. And before thinking that we all live in \
Italy and that we all manage cows for a living (not that I would not like \
it, it's just the economic side of it that worries me). :))))))))
> I did work out a "universal" (well, at least for Latin characters) \
> keyboard some time ago, and still type with it. See:
> http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linuxkla
> there is a not-so-cluttered Italian version (that should include dialects \
> and minority languages):
> http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI
> in any case, look at the .Xmodmap file if you want to create yours. \
> Unicode is your friend.
Thanks, I will. I am tired of using the & trick to produce an HTML file I \
can copy as normal text.
> I don't think there is a large target of users for a Piedmontese l10n;
That’s something I can hardly deny. Most users are and will remain on \
Windows.
> - I would prefer to avoid splitting the translation
> efforts…. We agreed it's better to focus on
> something everybody in Italy can use.
It makes sense to me. If us, the Piedmontese speakers, want to have such a \
translation, we are supposed to make it ourselves. All I ask for is the \
technical chance to do it, by adding files during the compilation process.
> - Usage of dialect is currently heavily loaded
> with political meaning.
Once again, why should this affect us foreign residents? We can sympathize \
with you, but don't throw your trouble on us, please.
> This is all a voluntary project; if you think you
> can support such an effort, by all means go on.
It’s not going to be me, personally. I am already working on the free \
courses of Piedmontese language for Slavic immigrants, I write for the \
Piedmontese community and I also have to make some money to feed my family. \
But we shall find someone who has the time for this.
> Translating KDE is a HUGE load of work,
> and it takes quite a team to do it.
Yes, I am aware of that. Still, it’s not going to be as bad as it would be \
if we were expected to translate Windows, right?
Salut-me nostre Alp, che mi i j'hai sempe ant el cheur ;)
Cereja
Berto
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD><BASE
href="file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Stationery\">
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Hi Rico!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>I for one am quite sure no one speaks
_only_ Piedmontese dialect, and people <BR>>speaking it natively (i.e. \
better than Italian) are probably never to come <BR>>anywhere near a \
computer. I am a Piedmontese of Arona, "the pearl of <BR>>Verbano" \
(line sponsored by our local tourist board ;-), and know a few \
<BR>>things of the area. In any case we refer to it as \
"dialect".</SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Yes, I was born not faraway from your \
place (Biella), although my family is from the center (Monfrà) so I \
know the local situation. Still, it's a "local" thing. What I can tell you \
is that we refer to our mother language as a “language”, and use it as \
such. <SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New \
Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New \
Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Besides, the \
Ukrainian language used to be defined as a “dialect” by Polish and Russian \
governments. <SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times \
New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New \
Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">After getting \
close to extinction is now spoken by some 40% of the Ukrainian population. \
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New \
Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New \
Roman'; mso-fareast-language: RU; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">There is no \
such thing as a “dialect”, unless you talk about a different usage of the \
very same language, on the condition that dialects remain understandable to \
each other. Otherwise you are going to call “dialects” all the romance \
languages, just because they have common roots for both grammar and \
dictionary. But even in that case you are going to have a hard time in \
finding out a way to normalize those “verbal pronouns” used by us \
Piedmontese speakers into a common European “dialect”. It takes \
but one look at our grammar, and it immediately becomes clear that \
the word "dialect" is totally out of place.</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US \
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> Usage \
of dialect is <BR>>considered all but xenophobic, and its "revival" by \
political movements whose <BR>>leaders have suggested to shoot or shell \
African immigrants has not improved <BR>>its status. Even these \
politicians, however, hold their speeches in Italian, <BR>>not dialect \
(with some rare exceptions).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US">My judgment about politics and politicians is even more radical \
than yours. I simply wish they started to find a way to make a living \
without hiding behind my linguistic identity. Besides, in my 45 years \
of life I never voted for the right wings. That’s just to make it \
clear. Still I know that the argument is often considered taboo, in a \
sort of reverse racism. I can speak Neapolitan (and I like to do it, \
although I have a pretty poor accent) or Arabic and be considered \
witty, but if I use the language in which my thoughts are formed I am a \
racist. Sorry, I’m fed up with it, and so are many of us, no matter what \
their political views. It’s just a matter of civil rights, not a matter of \
being better or worse than anybody else. :(</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>if anyone knows where "Zenitk" could \
be a <BR>>normal surname, that would really solve a mistery
;-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The final TK seems to be the \
result of some old transcription to Latin chars. The Z is likely to be a \
harsh S (as in the Italian “rosa”, I assume you cannot read Piedmontese, \
so I will avoid using it for examples) more than a Z, as it would be \
in Italian. Besides, if your family came in the area at the time when \
Piedmontese was used as a State language (until the French revolution, \
along with all the other local languages, Latin, Italian and French), than \
it should have been possible to use the char Z, which in our alphabet \
gets used to represent an initial harsh S. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">What you get is Zenit, or *Zenik*, the
latter being a fairly common surname…here in Ukraine. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Not that surprising, though, as \
Western Ukraine was a part of Austria, and Austria had its other border \
not too far from Arona. So the chance for an ethnically Ukraine Austrian \
soldier to remain in Arona was pretty high, especially right after \
Bonaparte’s fall, when we restored the Piedmontese state but were under \
Austrain military occupation for a while. </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US \
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I am not aware of a way to express such \
an initial sound using the Italian alphabet, so I guess you have no chance \
for you to restore your surname to its original sound, but you could take \
the final TH away, as the original sound most probably was that of a plain \
K. </SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: \
RU; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">It’s going to be extremely difficult for you \
to locate your roots in here, as most of the archives have been lost \
during the period of wars and revolutions. Possibly the best chance would \
be to trace back your family tree until the first appearance of the \
surname in your area (which should be possible for free, just by using \
church registers), then try and locate the Austrian military registers of \
that period, which should still exist. At that point, you would know where \
to start from here, in the East. If you do not expect immediate results \
and just spend a week a year in your chase, then you are likely to find \
out a lot, in some 20 years or so. Looking for roots is an interesting \
sport, just do not be in a hurry, because it’s a *slow* thing. \
:)</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: \
RU; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US">>In any case, you can request your name to be changed if there \
is a reason for <BR>>it. Not sure about the procedure though, but \
there's a lot of bureaucracy <BR>>involved.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US \
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Come on, you perfectly know that the \
Italians authorities would define my request as “antinational” (no, they \
would say I am a racist LOL). The refusal is either going to come \
from fascists or communists, but, to quote Led Zep "the song remains \
the same". :))) Besides, I do not see why to give them tons of my \
hard-earned money, just to be finally refused. I’d rather change passport \
and have the matter settled for free. ;) </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>This was largely a stunt by the \
previous regional government. <BR>If you talk about schools, then I have \
poor visibility on the local matters. If you talk about literature, \
grammars and vocabularies, then you are wrong, but probably this would \
lead us totally off topic. I am ready to provide you with lists of \
books/libraries on a private exchange basis, though. Besides, the funny \
thing about all this, is that an Ukrainian of Piedmontese \
origin talks about such things with a Piedmontese of \
probable Ukrainian origin. Isn’t the world a mad place? LOL</SPAN></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US \
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><BR>>Most people will consider it \
outright ludicrous. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">It’s a big mistake. :( Racism came out \
because people were not given the chance to speak their language.If \
the southern guys had been properly taught in schools to speak local \
languages (including their own) Italy would have not become a place where \
people despise each other that much. And by learning proper grammars, \
people would have understood why using a construction is speaking a \
language, while another construction is proper to another \
language. Yet I know that it’s impossible to speak \
about such things in Italy, because every scientific data \
immediately becomes a case for political hysteria (from both sides). \
Besides, teaching piedmontese would also mean teaching history, and \
explaining to the locals how many of the words they use are actually… \
Arabic. Things and languages are neutral, it is people using them to kill \
each other. </SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm \
0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm \
0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US">>Furthermore, there is far from a single dialect covering the \
whole region: in <BR>>Arona, we speak a sort of \
varesotto/milanese/ossolano pidgin, in the Gran <BR>>Paradiso area I \
have heard French constructs built on Italian words ("il fa \
<BR>>d'andar..."), <BR>The Piedmontese language does include a number \
of dialects, the grammars usually account for it. Thank God, being free \
from the need to use our language for political reasons also means we can \
respect local varieties, by giving them all the same dignity. The number \
of local languages in Piedmont accounts to 5, AFAIK. \
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-PIEMONTÈIS (with all its
dialects)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-OCITAN (at least in 3 varieties, \
including the Nissard, which is spoken in the parts of Piedmont that now \
belong to France)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-ARPITAN (mostly in the Gran Paradis area, \
in Savoy and closer the Aosta Valley)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-WALSER (in your area and on the Swiss \
side of the Alps)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">-RAKARÁSSA ROMANÉS (the language \
of the piedmontese Sinti, the gypsies)</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">There might have been a local Jewish \
language, but we never succeeded in finding real written evidences of it. \
One of the worst deeds of the past govt was into completely forgetting \
about the Sinti, by reducing the number of "local" languages to 4. Now \
this is *very* stupid, and ungrateful, too. The most uncorrupted spoken \
version of our own Piedmontese language was saved by these very people, \
the Sinti, to whom we owe the chance to restore the language after 150 of \
decay. Once again, the best thing local politicians of both sides can do, \
is to keep their big mouths shut, because any time they speak, they say \
idiotic things. Language matters should be addressed by competent people, \
not by guys who only advertise themselves.</SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"></SPAN> </P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm \
0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The history of Piedmont is the \
history of a multiethnic state, which succeeded in respecting all of its \
member cultures until we got imperialists and began to “make Italy” (by \
slaughtering some 10 to 20% of the civil unarmed population of Southern \
Italy, in the name of Progress). Southern officers were deliberately \
killed by starvation in thousands, at Fort Fenestrelle, and their corpses \
were chemically dissolved, not to waste space and time for the burials, \
while not even a list of the names was kept. I am teaching my kids \
how bad a Piedmontese may be, along with the pride for their native \
culture. I tend to consider that more sincerity about these “forgotten” \
matters would only help in building a peaceful society. </SPAN> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US \
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>Not that I don't believe \
you, but who in the world does business in <BR>>Piedmontese? I'm \
genuinely curious.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">LOL If you lived in a country where every \
phone is listened to, you would LOVE to speak a rare language. Besides, \
emails get read in the West no less than they are read here. So we like to \
make business among Piedmontese speakers across the planet not because we \
are racists, but because we can have a wonderful privacy level, even \
without learning to use PGP. It’s many of us on the planet, and we are \
often quite annoyed by the fact that "italian Piedmontese" people tend to \
consider that they have a monopoly on decision regarding our common \
culture. I guess this is a problem common to all diasporas, reading some \
Jewish literature on the subject can be quite enlighting. :))) </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">On the practical linguistic side, \
you will find a piedmontese mailing list at <A
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piemontviv/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piemontviv/</A> \
and a magazine at <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><A
href="http://www.e-opinion.info/">www.e-opinion.info</A> Take a look at \
them, before thinking that everyone speaking Piedmontese is a monster. And \
before thinking that we all live in Italy and that we all manage cows for \
a living (not that I would not like it, it's just the economic side of it \
that worries me). :))))))))<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>I did work out a "universal" (well, at \
least for Latin characters) keyboard <BR>>some time ago, and still type \
with it. See:<BR>><A
href="http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linuxkla">http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/linuxkla</A><BR>>there \
is a not-so-cluttered Italian version (that should include dialects and
<BR>>minority languages):<BR>><A
href="http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI">http://zenith.nt.ntnu.no/NTI</A><BR>>in \
any case, look at the .Xmodmap file if you want to create yours. Unicode \
is <BR>>your friend.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Thanks, I will. I am tired of using the \
& trick to produce an HTML file I can copy as normal \
text.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm \
0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm \
0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> I don't \
think there is a large target of users for a Piedmontese \
l10n;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm \
0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">That’s something I \
can hardly deny. Most users are and will remain on \
Windows.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm \
0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><BR>>- I would \
prefer to avoid splitting the translation <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>efforts…. We agreed it's better to \
focus on <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>something everybody in Italy can \
use.<BR>It makes sense to me. If us, the Piedmontese speakers, want to \
have such a translation, we are supposed to make it ourselves. All I ask \
for is the technical chance to do it, by adding files during the \
compilation process. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><BR>>- Usage of dialect is currently \
heavily loaded <BR>>with political meaning.<BR>Once again, why should \
this affect us foreign residents? We can sympathize with you, but don't \
throw your trouble on us, please.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>This is all a voluntary project; if \
you think you <BR>>can support such an effort, by all means go on. \
<BR>It’s not going to be me, personally. I am already working on the free \
courses of Piedmontese language for Slavic immigrants, I write for the \
Piedmontese community and I also have to make some money to feed my \
family. But we shall find someone who has the time for \
this.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm \
0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm \
0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> \
Translating KDE is a HUGE load of work, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>and it takes quite a team to do \
it.<BR>Yes, I am aware of that. Still, it’s not going to be as bad as it \
would be if we were expected to translate Windows, right? \
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN \
lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: \
RU; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Salut-me nòstre Alp, che mi i j'hai \
sempe ant ël cheur ;)<BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: \
EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: \
RU; mso-bidi-language: \
AR-SA">Cereja<BR>Bèrto</SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]
Configure |
About |
News |
Add a list |
Sponsored by KoreLogic