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List:       kde-edu
Subject:    Re: [kde-edu]: Ideas for a MathCenter
From:       Michael Hofer <michaelhofer () gmx ! net>
Date:       2002-08-25 12:58:40
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Hello!

Am Sonntag, 25. August 2002 02:19 schrieb Christian Parpart:
> > I think the parts/plugin-structure suggested by Eva (in "possible design
> > math app" on kde-edu-devel) sounds very interesting and may deliver a
> > flexible way to split a comprehensive math-app into overseeable modules
> > (I didn't look at the prototype yet).
>
> You should have done this..... _before_ posting this here.

I possibly should. Maybe my assumption was false. But that assumption wasn't 
the main point in my posting.....
That was:
> > But, beside the technical details about how to do what we want, we should
> > probably define what we want :-)

> Well, as I did understand, the proposal for the math app was for learning
> only. Here's the place where you should look at the sources. The interface
> allows plugins for applications like KBruch, KPercentage, and equivalents.
> All of them are 100% pure training applications.

I think you mix up learning and training here (if I understand you correct). 
KBruch and KPercentage are training applications. But they provide no help in 
learning.
Maybe a math-app can't replace a teacher completely. If you have never heard 
of something, it could be difficult to learn it only with the help of a 
program. But it could be at least a good support to "relearn"/repeat 
something already known...

That's why I suggested separate learn- and training-modes.
For example:

- Learning Additions could show me two groups of apples (2 + 3) and explain me 
(with graphics/animations) that, if they are merged together this results in 
a sum of 5 apples. This would be a typical support-exercise for teachers 
trying to teach additions to pupils for the first time.
After that learning exercise there could be one or several training exercises 
(something like kbruch for additions) in the same exercise-group.

- There could also be learning exercises for more advanced tasks. For example 
learning matrices. Such exercises (it would require several exercises) could 
explain what matrices are, show different types of matrices, 
"calculation-rules", explain determinants, methods to calculate there 
value,......
This would be a typical adult-exercise and wouldn't make sense in child-mode.

What do teachers think about such learning-exercises?

> > So, here are my suggestions for a common math-app (KMathCenter?):
> look at http://www.surakware.net/projects/kmathcenter/index.xml , then
> look at http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-edu-devel&m=102015650217579&w=2

I have seen your application some time ago (looks promising) - but I didn't 
realise that it's name was KMathCenter. Sorry, I neither wanted to steal your 
name nor "assimilate" your application....

> messages.... however, that application I have in my mind isn't a learning
> app of that kind. Its intends are to be used in schools and for ppl
> studying mathematics or something related. That means, they probably don't
> want to learn something about how to add or subtract and how much percent
> they got.

I know. Your KMathCenter is a completely different thing and it doesn't make 
sense to merge it with something like the application I had in mind.
When talking about a "unified math app" I meant something that integrates 
KBruch, KNumbers, ktt and all that things into one common 
learning-and-training-app.
So your KMathCenter should definitely stay separate in my opinion. (I guess 
you plan something like MathCAD in the long term?)

> > 	- Learning (with explanations)
> > 	- Training (similar, but not necessarily identic to the
>
> you do learn by doing training. Think about it ;)

I "train myself" by doing training, I learn by explanations :-)
First get the grasp on something (with the help of 
learning-exercises/explanations), then practice it (with 
training-exercises)....

> I'd prefer menues instead of place consuming tree views.

I'm not sure - If there are many exercises in a structure with maybe two or 
three sublevels menus aren't a joy to use. You have to remember and 
"retravel" the path when jumping from one exercise to the following in the 
same sub-group of exercises.
What about child-mode? What to replace the menu-structures with 
(not-place-consuming)?

> > Adult-Mode
> > http://www.inode.at/mhofer/kmathcenter/adult ui.ui
>
> Sorry, doesn't exist! (or my konqeror just can't open it)

In my original mail there was an underscore between "adult" and "ui" and not a 
space (same for "children" and "ui"):
http://www.inode.at/mhofer/kmathcenter/adult_ui.ui
http://www.inode.at/mhofer/kmathcenter/children_ui.ui

> As of my experience in my german Abitur, our teacher just used the
> available math apps for illustrating i.e. calculus graphs, and other stuff,
> but not for exercises. This is the very own part of the teacher to "teach"
> their students. The computer is the help for understanding, not for
> teaching.

As of my experience in my Austrian Matura ;-) our teacher didn't use 
_learning_-apps at all. We used apps like MathCAD to visualize and solve 
exercises we had already learned and done on paper before (-> letting MathCAD 
do all the hard work ;-)

I could possibly have learned all this things alone from math-books without 
the support of a teacher, but it would have been much harder because there 
would have been nobody to ask questions about details I didn't understand at 
first.
But computers are able to do more than only presenting the basics (like in 
books) - there could be more interactivity. For example, it could be possible 
to guide you through exercises/equations and, if you get stuck, show you the 
next necessary step to solve it.
I know - a teacher is always better, but it would be a good thing for support 
and learning/training at home. And don't forget the people who are not in 
school anymore (-> no teacher) but despite that want / need to (re)learn 
specific math-things.....

But that's again just my opinion... What do the teachers think about 
computer-learning-exercises? What should such exercises aim for?

> > - user profiles -> Saving the status of the exercises, advancements,
> > statistics, highscores....
>
> UNIX system has an excelent user accounting system.

You are right. We don't necessarily need a user-management. What I actually 
meant was simply a way to store/manage these things for the current user.

> > - training exercises should adapt to personal strengths/weaknesses
> > (->user profiles)
> > - user-defineable training exercises
>
> hm.... how do _you_ think about it? how would such an exercise be
> configurable, think about kpercentage, about kbruch, and equivalents (if
> there). Creating user defineable exercises make the dialog very complex and
> the teacher is wasting time in explaining how to do so. Is there an easier
> way?

I think something like this isn't for children, but more an 
adult-mode-feature. In school the teacher may pre-define such exercises for 
all pupils (-> remote-configurability).
I first thought about "format strings" for calculations/equations, but I think 
it could also be possible to pack this functionality into an easy to use 
configuration-dialog.

> > - KFeeder-integration for exercises in child-mode?
> What's KFeeder?

Arnold already posted the link.
I'm just not sure if/how it could be integrated to make sense....

> > - learning-exercises should be visualized with animations (and sounds
> > where appropriate)
>
> So it's for children only.

Why? Visualisations could help adults as well. But, yes,  it depends on the 
exercise/module (-> the target-group) if such things make sense....

> These stuff, if ever implemented, should be
> possible to disable. However, the schools today (@least in germany) must
> fight for each one Cent, and they definitely won't put it into sound cards,

I know that schools don't have much money. But I also know several schools (in 
Austria) which have soundcards in their PCs. If there would be more 
applications making good use of sounds there would also be more schools 
investing there money in sound-equipment.
But i agree - it should be possible to disable sound-features (-> global 
configuration) and each module should provide alternatives if no sound is 
available.

Anyway - at the moment I don't know many math-exercises which would strongly 
benefit from the use of sounds (besides the entertaining factor) - but maybe 
I'm just not creative enough...

> :) Okay, I personally like the idea of kmath, but I can't agree with mixing
> children stuff with higher math's. Both user groups just get confused by.

Did you mean this in the context of mixing KMathCenter-things with learning- 
and training-tasks (which would be bad in my opinion too) or in general (for 
a pure learning/training-app)?
How would you group the math-tasks together? (Would you?)

servus,
Michael
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