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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: What to test for 4.13?
From:       Frank Reininghaus <frank78ac () googlemail ! com>
Date:       2014-03-08 11:30:09
Message-ID: CAFoZWWgEHDfv9mEG3FFY1MdiEn7E903Zo3iW3yNdB=E7-AEm=w () mail ! gmail ! com
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Hi,

2014-03-08 11:47 GMT+01:00 Ian Wadham:
> On 08/03/2014, at 6:43 PM, Frank Reininghaus wrote:
>> 2014-03-08 4:38 GMT+01:00 Ian Wadham:
>>> While we are on the topic of testing, how much testing is done of
>>> KDE's cross-platform and cross-desktop implementations?
>>
>> Unless the people who prepare the Mac packages test them, the only
>> testing is done by you and by other users,
>
> So what I am hearing, in answer to my question, is "No testing by the KDE
> development team".

Yes, I think that this is true for most KDE packages. Sorry if I
wasn't clearer in my earlier mail - I had assumed that it's obvious
that people who work exclusively on Linux (this is the case for the
vast majority of KDE developers) cannot test anything on MacOS.

>> most of whom unfortunately
>> seem to be either unable or unwilling to file useful bug reports and
>> help to debug the problems.
>
> Most of the problems that occur are in building and configuring
> packages across various Apple machines and versions of OS X, from
> several years ago to the present day.  The Macports team provide about
> 12,000 packages and do a wonderful job of answering the users' queries
> on MacPorts Users <macports-users@lists.macosforge.org>.  The users
> usually file their bug reports (about builds, etc) in the Macports bugs
> database.
>
>>> Just in the last week I have seen cases of a guy on Apple OS X who could
>>> not build kde4-baseapps
>>
>> Which version of kde-baseapps? Has this guy filed a bug report?
>
> He filed one at https://trac.macports.org/ticket/42673.  He did not nominate
> a version of KDE, but it would have to be in the range KDE 4.10 to 4.12.
> At this stage, it looks as if the problem could be compiler-related.

I can't say much about that, sorry. If someone who understands the
problem can propose a patch to fix it, this would be very welcome.

>>> On Apple OS X, with which I am familiar, the Macports guys do
>>> a great job of porting and distributing KDE libraries and apps,
>>> but several apps are severely broken.  On my own system, I have
>>> built Dolphin, but it crashes before showing any window.
>>
>> Never ever talk about bugs in applications without mentioning the
>> version please. There was a Dolphin crash on MacOS some time ago which
>> could be fixed because Gilles Caulier and Kurt Hindenburg helped to
>> debug it and tested a patch:
>>
>> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=316209
>> https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/111182/
>>
>> If you see a crash in a more recent version, we would like to know about it.
>
> I tried Dolphin at KDE 4.10.1. I do not think I have the same crash as bug
> 316209, because I get nothing at all on the screen when Dolphin crashes.
>
>>> I cannot tell you why, because Dr Konqui does not work either ... :-(
>>
>> I hope you know how to get a backtrace on MacOS.
>
> I think I do, but I do not (yet) know how to interpret it ...  Do you?

It depends. Sometimes the backtrace tells immediately what the problem
is, sometimes it's useless, and most of the time, it's somewhere in
between. Still, at least seeing the backtrace is always helpful - we
cannot do much about a bug report like "Dolphin crashes on startup"
with no further info :-(

> Right now I am busy working to meet KDE 4.13 deadlines, so investigating
> Dolphin has to be low on my priorities, and OS X has its own file manager.
>
> My concern, when I have time, is to investigate getting Digikam and some of the
> edu packages to work fully on OS X.  There is nothing quite like them in the Mac world ...
>
>>> This sort of thing does discredit to KDE, which contains many
>>> fine apps and utilities and is a fine desktop on its home turf, in
>>> Linux.  But in the Apple environment, when discussing KDE
>>> apps, I have even seen 4-letter words bandied about ... :-(
>>>
>>> Maybe it is time some KDE guys had a joint sprint with Apple and
>>> Windows guys and got to the bottom of such problems.
>>
>> No, it's time that KDE users on Mac learn that the software can only
>> improve if they tell the developers (most of them do not work on MacOS
>> at all) about any problems and help to debug them.
>
> That is not very easy.  The kind of problems I am talking about seem to
> be in the area where KDE processes inter-operate and inter-communicate
> on a KDE desktop, but perhaps not so well on an OS X desktop, and it is
> difficult to find out much about that.  I have been on this list before
> and tried.  So it is difficult, at the OS X end, to nail anything down.
>
>> If that is not possible, then we should seriously consider dropping
>> MacOS support IMHO, to prevent further discredit being done to KDE.
>
> Well, maybe so.  Qt manages OK cross-platform and I have had no
> problems at all with qt4-mac, nor does any other OS X user I have met.

This is because Digia employs developers who work on Qt on MacOS
full-time every day.

> If KDE developers cannot or will not test a release on some version of
> Apple hardware and OS X, what right do they have to offer it as a
> cross-platform and cross-desktop system?

The term "KDE developers" is a bit vague. I would consider both you
and me as KDE developers, but neither of us offer KDE "as a
cross-platform and cross-desktop system". Essentially, KDE on MacOS is
offered by those who "port and distribute the software" on MacOS, and
who are doing a great job according to your earlier message. One could
argue that it is not unreasonable to expect from them that they at
least check if it builds and that the applications do not crash on
startup.

>>> And it would be nice to have some regular testing ... :-)
>>
>> I understand that quite a bit of regular testing is being done by you
>> and your friends.
>
> No, not testing, they are mostly just attempting to build and *use* stuff.
> If they fail, I think they just go and try some other package ... :-)

If building stuff, using it and checking if it works is not testing,
then what sort of testing do you have in mind?

Cheers,
Frank

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