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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: KDE4: missing features from KDE3
From:       Andreas Pakulat <apaku () gmx ! de>
Date:       2009-08-04 20:21:56
Message-ID: 20090804202156.GA13731 () trinity ! apaku ! dnsalias ! org
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On 04.08.09 20:23:46, Anne Wilson wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 August 2009 19:00:09 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > On Tuesday 04 August 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:
> > > WONTFIX is a major annoyance.
> >
> > it's also part of reality. not every thing can be or should be implemented.
> >
> I never said it would.  Like it or not, WONTFIX gives the impression that you 
> don't care. 

Well, if a wish is closed as wontfix, without an explanation why, thats
clearly not acceptable. However, if closing something as wontfix and
providing a suitable explanation, I can't see how anyone can think the
developer doesn't care.

> That should never be. 

Assuming you mean the "developer doesn't care" part, then yes I fully
agree.

> There must be a better way of tagging 
> things.  In many cases we probably need a tag that conveys the meaning that it 
> would break other things.  Something on the lines of SystemBreaker.  In other 
> cases just changing the tag to Wish should be sufficient.

Well, we're talking about feature requests, which are already tagged as
wish. So closing it as wish won't really help here I think.

> > > People might feel better if they are given
> > > an explanation of why something won't be fixed.
> >
> > IME, usually they don't. more of than not they will argue back. i don't
> > mind someone trying to explain themselves more and having one or two
> > back-and-forth messages on bugs.kde.org. but way too often the reporter
> > takes it very seriously and starts arguing about it, eventually often
> > making disparaging remarks about the developer's attitude, competence,
> > care, etc.
> >
> Sorry, but that's life.  If explanation has been given they should be ignored.

Yeah, thats the theory. Unfortunately reality sometimes looks a bit
different :(

> > > I totally sympathise with
> > > those who feel slighted when WONTFIX is all they see on their bug report.
> >
> > the user community needs some guidance and direction in this then. if they
> > take it personally, they have it all wrong. i've had a number of requests
> > marked as WONTFIX in KDE and elsewhere. i sometimes agreed, sometimes
> > didn't. it's not a reason to get upset about it.
> >
> My reasons for arguing are given above.  It's not the fact that they are not 
> fixed that is the problem, it's the term itself.

So, would "WONTIMPLEMENT" help? As Aaron already said, bugzilla isn't
quite the right tool to do feature requests anyway. The fact that a
feature request is nothing but an ordinary bugreport with the lowest
severity possible already indicates that.

> > the user community that interacts with F/OSS projects such as KDE really
> > needs to start understanding how this all works and taking some
> > responsibility in their actions. as developers we're expected to be
> > paragons of behavior, but really it's cooperative between all of us. except
> > that the user community tends to still lack a clear set of shared values
> > and ethics when it comes to these things.
> >
> The user community is large and constantly changing.  At the moment we seem to 
> have a really bad-tempered lot of loud-mouthed folk, but it's not just on KDE 
> lists.  I don't know whether it's the economy, the weather, or just plain bad 
> manners, but it's there.

I think this is also a social problem, people are getting used to be
able to shout, rant and moan on the net without ever being held
responsible for the possible damage they do with that.
 
> > > > you know what's REALLY funny about that page on en.opensuse.org? it
> > > > doesn't mention _at all_ the actually useful features that are missing,
> > > > like a plasmoid to show a random submenu of the apps menu so you can
> > > > drag and drop it from kickoff into the pane (or wherever) and just get
> > > > that branch of them.
> > >
> > > This is one of the most frequently bemoaned lacks on the user list.  IMO
> > > it
> >
> > sure; reality is that a small number of people in the real world need such
> > a thing and we have had a large number of other things to take care of that
> > impact even more people. that and sometimes we'd like to work on things
> > that are enjoyable and useful to us. if it's really important, why has
> > nobody stepped up to do it? where is my motivation to work on it? 
> 
> The fact that you called it 'the actually useful feature' (quoted above)

There's a difference between seeing some feature as "actually useful"
and the motivation to work on it because one wants to actually use it.
For example, I totally understand why the above mentioned feature is
useful, but I don't have the slightest motivation to work on it myself,
because the only thing I use the menu for sending the machine into
suspend.

> > (answer:
> > completely destroyed for 4.3 by the rudeness of the only response i
> > received back from saying "yes, this needs to be done. won't be the for 4.3
> > though.")
> >
> One comment?  Come on!  We all get rude comments from time to time.

Well, some of us get them on a more regular basis, especially projects
that are exposed to such a _huge_ user base as plasma. I'm personally
thankful that KDevelop is not exposed to such a large amount of users.

> > > Unkind and unrealistic.  Without bug/wish reports how do you know what
> > > features people value?
> >
> > i'm just fine with reports. i don't like it being scattered in N different
> > places (wiki lists, blog entries, etc )
> 
> It's called Free Speech.  You (and I) don't have to agree.

The problem is, if its scattered around N places, the chances are good
that no developer ever see's it (or see's it and then forgets where he
saw it) and afterwards the users start complaining about developers not
caring about their needs. And they rightfully point at a random blog
post where they've formulated they needs.

Face it, if people want a feature implemented in "my application"
(speaking as a KDE developer) there is exactly 1 channel to make sure I
see that request and am able to remember it in 6 months when it reaches
the top of my todo list: bugs.kde.org.

Andreas

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