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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: KDE4: missing features from KDE3
From:       Anne Wilson <cannewilson () googlemail ! com>
Date:       2009-08-04 19:23:46
Message-ID: 200908042023.46812.cannewilson () googlemail ! com
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On Tuesday 04 August 2009 19:00:09 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 August 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:
> >
> > This is the usual *very* vocal minority - they will never be convinced,
> > and can only be ignored.
>
> unfortunately they are spoiling the pot at places like bugs.kde.org for
> everyone else. ignoring them tends to result in not paying much attention
> to feature requests made on bugs.kde.org. i know of several projects in KDE
> that have ended up there.
>
See Parker Coates' final remark.  That is a real toughie.

> > WONTFIX is a major annoyance.
>
> it's also part of reality. not every thing can be or should be implemented.
>
I never said it would.  Like it or not, WONTFIX gives the impression that you 
don't care.  That should never be.  There must be a better way of tagging 
things.  In many cases we probably need a tag that conveys the meaning that it 
would break other things.  Something on the lines of SystemBreaker.  In other 
cases just changing the tag to Wish should be sufficient.

> > People might feel better if they are given
> > an explanation of why something won't be fixed.
>
> IME, usually they don't. more of than not they will argue back. i don't
> mind someone trying to explain themselves more and having one or two
> back-and-forth messages on bugs.kde.org. but way too often the reporter
> takes it very seriously and starts arguing about it, eventually often
> making disparaging remarks about the developer's attitude, competence,
> care, etc.
>
Sorry, but that's life.  If explanation has been given they should be ignored.

> > I totally sympathise with
> > those who feel slighted when WONTFIX is all they see on their bug report.
>
> the user community needs some guidance and direction in this then. if they
> take it personally, they have it all wrong. i've had a number of requests
> marked as WONTFIX in KDE and elsewhere. i sometimes agreed, sometimes
> didn't. it's not a reason to get upset about it.
>
My reasons for arguing are given above.  It's not the fact that they are not 
fixed that is the problem, it's the term itself.

> most important is to realize that this is a shared item we're using. if i
> want my very own thing, i have the source code to make my own special
> thing. otherwise, i'm sharing this software with millions of others and i
> have to remember that and take into consideration that sharing it with
> everyone means compromise at times, yes, but it also means a get a lot more
> than i ever could if i was using something "just for me" (since very few
> people would work on such a thing).
>
No argument.  I do try already to get across on MLs that one person's 
'absolutely essential' may be used by few if any others.

> the user community that interacts with F/OSS projects such as KDE really
> needs to start understanding how this all works and taking some
> responsibility in their actions. as developers we're expected to be
> paragons of behavior, but really it's cooperative between all of us. except
> that the user community tends to still lack a clear set of shared values
> and ethics when it comes to these things.
>
The user community is large and constantly changing.  At the moment we seem to 
have a really bad-tempered lot of loud-mouthed folk, but it's not just on KDE 
lists.  I don't know whether it's the economy, the weather, or just plain bad 
manners, but it's there.  OTOH there are huge numbers of long-time users that 
are never guilty of this behaviour, and don't deserve to be tarred with the 
same brush.

> > > you know what's REALLY funny about that page on en.opensuse.org? it
> > > doesn't mention _at all_ the actually useful features that are missing,
> > > like a plasmoid to show a random submenu of the apps menu so you can
> > > drag and drop it from kickoff into the pane (or wherever) and just get
> > > that branch of them.
> >
> > This is one of the most frequently bemoaned lacks on the user list.  IMO
> > it
>
> sure; reality is that a small number of people in the real world need such
> a thing and we have had a large number of other things to take care of that
> impact even more people. that and sometimes we'd like to work on things
> that are enjoyable and useful to us. if it's really important, why has
> nobody stepped up to do it? where is my motivation to work on it? 

The fact that you called it 'the actually useful feature' (quoted above)
> (answer:
> completely destroyed for 4.3 by the rudeness of the only response i
> received back from saying "yes, this needs to be done. won't be the for 4.3
> though.")
>
One comment?  Come on!  We all get rude comments from time to time.

> > Unkind and unrealistic.  Without bug/wish reports how do you know what
> > features people value?
>
> i'm just fine with reports. i don't like it being scattered in N different
> places (wiki lists, blog entries, etc )

It's called Free Speech.  You (and I) don't have to agree.

> nor do i have any stomach for the
> users who get upset when we acknowledge the need but say "we haven't done
> it yet"
>
> > Again, just a kind reply of 'coming, but not yet'
> > is not too much to ask, but often too much to get.
>
> well, saying "coming, but not yet" is often met with unfriendly responses.
> this encourages the developers to just avoid commenting on any wishlist
> entries that come in as the response to anything that isn't "i'll do it
> right now just as you asked" has a high risk of earning a poor response.
>
I've never actually seen anyone respond in that way.

> the user community is making a bed for itself that i don't think it's going
> to want to lie in.

Please stop talking as though the user community is a homogenous body.  It 
isn't.  Some of us fight really hard to deal with the very things that you are 
complaining about.  We don't do it in a blog.  We do it handling things one-
to-one, and often taking a lot of flack for doing it.  There are some really 
good, dedicated users out there, fighting hard on behalf of developers.  Value 
them.

Anne
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