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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: KDE4: missing features from KDE3
From:       "Aaron J. Seigo" <aseigo () kde ! org>
Date:       2009-08-04 18:00:09
Message-ID: 200908041200.10398.aseigo () kde ! org
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On Tuesday 04 August 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 August 2009 10:29:24 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > On Tuesday 04 August 2009, Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:
> > > People still complain about KDE3 features they miss in KDE4 (for
> > > instance:
> >
> > yes, of course they will. because people are people. there's a certain
> > sort of bullying going on there where certain individuals, fewer with
> > each release i might add, feel that if they just SHOUT LOUD AND
> > ANNOYINGLY ENOUGH AT US that we'll relent, break our designs, go back on
> > what we're trying to do and give them what they are used to at the
> > expense of everyone else.
>
> This is the usual *very* vocal minority - they will never be convinced, and
> can only be ignored.

unfortunately they are spoiling the pot at places like bugs.kde.org for 
everyone else. ignoring them tends to result in not paying much attention to 
feature requests made on bugs.kde.org. i know of several projects in KDE that 
have ended up there.

> > half the things affecting plasma there are bugs (and not all in plasma,
> > btw) and most of the rest are WONTFIXes. yes, things change. some design
> > decisions that bring benefits mean other things that were done before
> > aren't going to happen anymore.
>
> WONTFIX is a major annoyance. 

it's also part of reality. not every thing can be or should be implemented. 

> People might feel better if they are given
> an explanation of why something won't be fixed.

IME, usually they don't. more of than not they will argue back. i don't mind 
someone trying to explain themselves more and having one or two back-and-forth 
messages on bugs.kde.org. but way too often the reporter takes it very 
seriously and starts arguing about it, eventually often making disparaging 
remarks about the developer's attitude, competence, care, etc.

> I totally sympathise with
> those who feel slighted when WONTFIX is all they see on their bug report.

the user community needs some guidance and direction in this then. if they 
take it personally, they have it all wrong. i've had a number of requests 
marked as WONTFIX in KDE and elsewhere. i sometimes agreed, sometimes didn't. 
it's not a reason to get upset about it.

most important is to realize that this is a shared item we're using. if i want 
my very own thing, i have the source code to make my own special thing. 
otherwise, i'm sharing this software with millions of others and i have to 
remember that and take into consideration that sharing it with everyone means 
compromise at times, yes, but it also means a get a lot more than i ever could 
if i was using something "just for me" (since very few people would work on 
such a thing).

the user community that interacts with F/OSS projects such as KDE really needs 
to start understanding how this all works and taking some responsibility in 
their actions. as developers we're expected to be paragons of behavior, but 
really it's cooperative between all of us. except that the user community 
tends to still lack a clear set of shared values and ethics when it comes to 
these things.

> > you know what's REALLY funny about that page on en.opensuse.org? it
> > doesn't mention _at all_ the actually useful features that are missing,
> > like a plasmoid to show a random submenu of the apps menu so you can drag
> > and drop it from kickoff into the pane (or wherever) and just get that
> > branch of them.
>
> This is one of the most frequently bemoaned lacks on the user list.  IMO it

sure; reality is that a small number of people in the real world need such a 
thing and we have had a large number of other things to take care of that 
impact even more people. that and sometimes we'd like to work on things that 
are enjoyable and useful to us. if it's really important, why has nobody 
stepped up to do it? where is my motivation to work on it? (answer: completely 
destroyed for 4.3 by the rudeness of the only response i received back from 
saying "yes, this needs to be done. won't be the for 4.3 though.")

> > even more "funny" is that when i commented on the wishlist item for that
> > and noted that we should implement it but that it wouldn't be in this
> > release i got yelled at by two different people on the report, completely
> > without cause.
> >
> > if the community of users wants to see improvement they can pick up a
> > text editor and get their hands dirty, pay / coerce someone else to do so
> > or shut up and be patient.
>
> Unkind and unrealistic.  Without bug/wish reports how do you know what
> features people value?

i'm just fine with reports. i don't like it being scattered in N different 
places (wiki lists, blog entries, etc ) nor do i have any stomach for the 
users who get upset when we acknowledge the need but say "we haven't done it 
yet"

> Again, just a kind reply of 'coming, but not yet'
> is not too much to ask, but often too much to get.

well, saying "coming, but not yet" is often met with unfriendly responses. 
this encourages the developers to just avoid commenting on any wishlist 
entries that come in as the response to anything that isn't "i'll do it right 
now just as you asked" has a high risk of earning a poor response.

the user community is making a bed for itself that i don't think it's going to 
want to lie in.

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software

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