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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: How to configure konqueror to show KB and MB instead of KiB and
From:       Michael Pyne <mpyne () kde ! org>
Date:       2009-07-09 5:40:31
Message-ID: 200907090140.37018.mpyne () kde ! org
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On Thursday 09 July 2009 00:53:17 Josh Berry wrote:
> Nor does it mean what the IEEE, SI units, etc. define it to mean.  The
> IEEE is, in fact, pretty clear that "kilo" = 1,000, "mega" =
> 1,000,000, etc. now that the binary units have been standardized by
> the IEC.  (see: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html )

So now that the IEC has said so, Arora is leading me astray when it says a 
file is 64.7 KB?  My flash cards aren't really 4GB?

You can thump the specs on the desk all you want but you can't just change the 
definition of the units in this context without at least some more buy-in from 
just KDE, a point you yourself have made in your response below when you 
mention doing unprecedented things.

> Except it is NOT a new unit.  It is correcting a mistake that was made
> decades ago and propagated by lazy software developers.

"decades ago".  I mean, seriously, listen to that.  Right or wrong, the 
definition of these units are backed up by *decades* of actual usage, so 
you're going to have a very hard time convincing a lot of people that their 
values magically changed once some IEC engineers signed a form to issue a new 
standard.

And it's unfair to say "propagated by lazy software developers" because that's 
what the unit was (at least for memory capacities).

> Unfortunately, the meaning of the *B units has become sufficiently
> diluted to the point where we now have two equally-passionate groups
> of people arguing over what they mean, and for all the messages that
> have flown back and forth, we are no closer to agreement.  If
> anything, the two sides have become entrenched and I don't see how
> further discussion will get us closer to an answer.
>
> Given the above, I've changed my mind -- I no longer think KDE should
> have any units other than the *iB units.  Those are the only units we
> seem to be able to agree on.  The meaning of the *B units has been
> sufficiently diluted to the point that NO MATTER what definition we
> pick, someone will likely misinterpret them.

Well there is apparently interest in having real decimal units.  My only real 
complaint is that it can't (yet) be the "kilobyte".

Go out and look on Google or Yahoo about kilobyte being 1024.  You'll find 
pages telling you to impress your friends with the little-known fact that a 
kilobyte is 1024 bytes, dozens of articles "explaining" kilobytes, megabytes, 
etc.  If anything, the unit has become more ubiquitous to mean 1024 in 
computer applications over time, not less.

http://www.oftc.usyd.edu.au/edweb/networks/information/byte0.html
http://www.sharpened.net/helpcenter/answer.php?40
http://blogs.msdn.com/powershell/archive/2006/12/15/kb-1024-vs-1000.aspx
http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-4830.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080911025506AAa0gsF

> > How about we name it dkB (note the lowercase k), with equivalents all the
> > way up (dMB, dGB, dTB, etc.)?  That way people who really do want to see
> > units in powers of 10 can, with no uncertainty as to what units they are
> > getting, and those of us who just want to go on with our lives can
> > continue to use KiB (or its misspelling KB).
>
> I think we already have too many units.  KDE really *would* be doing
> something unprecedented with this, as it really does break with what
> everyone else is doing (nevermind the standards).

> You objected before
> to confusing users with KB = 1000 -- I think this would be an even
> worse source of confusion.

You can't have it both ways.  It can't be OK to confuse users by changing KB 
or forcing KiB and simultaneously not OK to confuse users by allowing a 
explicitly base 10 kedibyte (I'm sure you'll notice I just made up that name 
on the spot).  You will confuse thousands more users (backed up by decades of 
experience using the units) by making KB base-10 than you will by showing new 
units which the user has to manually select.  Even worse, the user would have 
to have manually selected the KB, and therefore been seeking it out in the 
first place!  This user was probably expecting the KB he's used for decades.  
Talk about confusing.

At the same time it's can't be OK for KDE to do something unprecedented with 
units on the one hand (1000 byte KB) but not on the other hand (dkB).

> We need to disambiguate the existing units, not make up new ones.
> That's why "KiB" et al were created in the first place.

Well I'd argue that my proposal is exactly in line with existing practice.  
Somehow computer users survived for decades with 1024-byte kilobytes before it 
became a major issue with mass storage manufacturers.  So we disambiguated by 
making up new units.

But now we still have a disconnect over the old units, so I say we could 
disambiguate the other way.  Perfect Solomon's logic, we have KiB and then we 
have kdB.  Actually that could be confused easily with deci-, let's see 
here... how about ↁ to mean explicitly decimal bytes?  (And from there, kↁ, 
Mↁ, Gↁ, etc.)  (In case it doesn't show up, it's code point U+2181, Roman 
numeral five thousand, which looks to me vaguely like a D-within-a-D).

But less snarkily if you take one thing away from this email, let it be this: 
Right now KB predominantly means, regardless of what IEC and SI may /want/, 
1024 bytes.  It would not be good form for KDE to be the project to throw 
grenades at their users (some of whom have used 1024 byte KBs for years if not 
actually decades).  With the introduction and gradual uptake of -ibibytes then 
perhaps it's something that can be rethought at the KDE 5 or 6 timeframe but 
now is not the time to make the switch.

If enough users want the decimal units then there's no reason not to allow it, 
but I don't want us to get caught showing KB meaning 1000 when the user thinks 
it means 1024 so it needs to be very clear.  After all, users have taken hard 
disk manufacturers to court over just this very topic.

Regards,
 - Michael Pyne

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