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List: kde-devel
Subject: Re: Techical Reason Why Konqueror File Management Engine Can't be
From: Jordi Polo <mumismo () gmail ! com>
Date: 2009-06-30 18:43:18
Message-ID: a4162420906301143n27c2701albab6efc230d6c9f4 () mail ! gmail ! com
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I may just repeat others arguments but just to make clear the point.
It is great you found those bugs and sent them to bugzilla, if they get
lots of votes in bugzilla I am sure they will get some attention.
But if you really want to see those things change, no more direct way than
solving them yourself.
FOSS developers may be strange creatures but still independent individuals
with their own ideas and roadmaps for their applications, probably with
different priorities from you.
Choose one of those bugs, code it, implement it and send a patch.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:17 AM, David C. Rankin <
drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
>
> Listmates,
>
> Is there some reason the konqueror file management engine (
> "backend" or
> whatever you want to call it) in kde4 cannot be restored to the kde3
> konqueror
> file manager engine instead of the dolphin backend? There are numerous
> basic
> problems with band-aiding the dolphin engine as the backend for konqueror
> file
> management that make it very very frustrating to work with. You cannot even
> make konqueror behave like konqueror since it now shares setting with
> dolphin.
>
> Why was this done in the first place?
>
> See: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197165
>
> <quote>
>
> ------ Comment #1 From Frank Reininghaus 2009-06-19 19:26:07 (-)
> [reply]
> -------
> Thanks for the report. I'll change the severity to "Wishlist" because this
> is
> not a bug.
>
> However, I'm afraid this might be impossible to implement. The problem is
> that
> Konqueror and Dolphin share the same code for the file management settings
> and
> also the settings file in the user's home directory (dolphinrc), so it's
> impossible to have different default settings for both :-(
>
> </quote>
>
> Yes, I agree with the :-(, that's crap.
>
> Basic focus handling is botched so if you ever preview a file using
> the
> right-click context item "Preview In", when you exit the preview, you are
> returned to the very "top" of the file list. Talk about annoying as hell in
> a
> directory with 600 files in it.
>
> See: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198073
>
> This is a major issue that for all practical purposes destroys a
> great deal
> of konqueror functionality. Dolphin isn't a usable replacement for
> konqueror,
> you can't even view a single man page or info page in the silly thing,
> among
> many other areas where it simply isn't capable of doing what konqueror
> does.
>
> Further, the dolphin backend destroys the ability to save the
> konqueror "File
> Management" profile and have it restored when you open konqueror back up:
>
> See: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195808
>
> What in the heck is the purpose of having a "Save View Profile File
> Management..." if it doesn't work. It works just fine in kde3 with the real
> konqueror backend, so why -- until the kde developers get this fixed --
> can't
> you simply restore the konqueror backend to konqueror so it will at least
> work
> and allow you to do the simple file management tasks that it was designed
> to
> do, and has been doing for the past 3 years in kde, before somebody decided
> to
> break konqueror by removing its working file management backend and "round-
> pegging... square-holing" the dolphin backend underneath it??
>
> Restoring correct konqueror focus handling would also greatly
> improve the
> ability for people with disabilities or an unsteady hand to use it as well.
> With the konqueror file management backend, you set focus on a file without
> activating it by clicking "anywhere" in the blank space between the end of
> the
> file name text and the "size" column. That was a big target and sufficient
> real-estate for people to hit who had unsteady hands or impaired vision.
> That's now broken and you have to be able to hit that tiny icon just before
> the file name to accomplish the same thing.
>
> See: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195528
>
> There were reasons that the konqueror file management backend worked
> the way
> it did and now all the efficiency and elegance of that engine has gone up
> in
> smoke because somebody had the cute idea to break konqueror to make dolphin
> instead of being smart about it and leaving konqueror as konqueror,
> building
> dolphin as a separate app and borrowing what was needed from konqueror
> instead
> of destroying it as a stand alone application. I mean konqueror now can't
> even
> remember the last folder a file was loaded from (using the file-open
> dialog)
> in web browsing mode causing you to have to navigate the entire filesystem
> tree for each and every file you need to attach for bugs.kde.org. That is
> a
> huge pain when you are working from, for example:
>
> /mnt/nirvana-cfg/srv/www/download/openSUSE_bugs/kde4/screenshots
>
> I'm doing my best to understand why all of this stuff is still
> broken on the
> eve of the .3 release, and I am doing my best to help fix it (38 bug
> reports
> in 30 days), but I must tell you it is very frustrating to have developers
> take the position that "yes, we know what you could do with konqueror in
> kde3,
> we know you can't now, but that isn't a 'bug', that is a 'wishlist' item."
> Huh??
>
> Is mediocrity the new gold standard for kde? With kde3 shut down,
> one would
> think more emphasis would be placed on making sure its functionality at
> least
> existed in kde4 as a priority and not simply an afterthought.
>
> Don't get me wrong and don't take this the wrong way or as a slam of
> kde4. I
> have committed myself to work with KDE4 as my primary desktop both on
> openSuSE
> ( 4.2.90-139.1 ) and on Archlinux ( 4.2.95-1 ) and I am very impressed with
> a
> majority of the great work that has been done. KDE4 is a damn good desktop.
> However, there is an abundance of very basic functionality issues that seem
> to
> be completely overlooked, swept under the rug, or basically ignored in a
> rush
> to get the glitz and glamor aspects of kde4 ironed out. This approach has
> so
> far made working with the desktop very very frustrating in multiple areas.
>
> I don't know what it will take to get the attention focused on these
> type of
> problems, but it needs to happen without further delay. I still must go
> back
> to kde3 for a number of things that simple cannot be done in KDE4. See eg:
>
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198112
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195623
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195808
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189583
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197595
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197911
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198030
>
> These are just by way of example of the ones I have stumbled across
> and not a
> complete list by any stretch of the imagination.
>
> We all have to same goal of helping make kde4 "the desktop" for
> Linux and one
> by which all others are measured. If we are going to succeed, more
> attention
> has to be placed on making sure it is usable and that the basic expected
> things work. Now fixing the way konqueror works may not be a glamorous as
> coding the new "plasma", but if the simple things don't work, nobody is
> going
> to care how good it looks.
>
> If I can provide more information on any of the bugs referenced in
> this post,
> just let me know and I will be happy to do it. I know the people assigned
> to
> these at bugs.kde.org have limited time so if this list can also help with
> the
> process, I don't mind working both.
>
> Now I know this post will piss 1/2 the readers off and garner
> agreement from
> the other 1/2, but the bottom line is these type of problems need to be
> fixed
> and at least from my standpoint simply restoring the konqueror backend to
> konqueror would fix a large number.
>
> --
> David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
> Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
> 510 Ochiltree Street
> Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
> Telephone: (936) 715-9333
> Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
> www.rankinlawfirm.com
>
> >> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to
> unsubscribe <<
>
--
Jordi Polo Carres
NLP laboratory - NAIST
http://www.bahasara.org
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<br>I may just repeat others arguments but just to make clear the point.<br>It is \
great you found those bugs and sent them to bugzilla, if they get lots of votes in \
bugzilla I am sure they will get some attention.<br>But if you really want to see \
those things change, no more direct way than solving them yourself. <br> FOSS \
developers may be strange creatures but still independent individuals with their own \
ideas and roadmaps for their applications, probably with different priorities from \
you.<br><br>Choose one of those bugs, code it, implement it and send a patch. \
<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:17 AM, David C. \
Rankin <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com">drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com</a>></span> \
wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, \
204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <br>
Listmates,<br>
<br>
Is there some reason the konqueror file management engine ( \
"backend" or<br> whatever you want to call it) in kde4 cannot be restored \
to the kde3 konqueror<br> file manager engine instead of the dolphin backend? There \
are numerous basic<br> problems with band-aiding the dolphin engine as the backend \
for konqueror file<br> management that make it very very frustrating to work with. \
You cannot even<br> make konqueror behave like konqueror since it now shares setting \
with dolphin.<br> <br>
Why was this done in the first place?<br>
<br>
See: <a href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197165" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197165</a><br> <br>
<quote><br>
<br>
------ Comment #1 From Frank Reininghaus 2009-06-19 19:26:07 (-) [reply]<br>
-------<br>
Thanks for the report. I'll change the severity to "Wishlist" because \
this is<br> not a bug.<br>
<br>
However, I'm afraid this might be impossible to implement. The problem is \
that<br> Konqueror and Dolphin share the same code for the file management settings \
and<br> also the settings file in the user's home directory (dolphinrc), so \
it's<br> impossible to have different default settings for both :-(<br>
<br>
</quote><br>
<br>
Yes, I agree with the :-(, that's crap.<br>
<br>
Basic focus handling is botched so if you ever preview a file using the<br>
right-click context item "Preview In", when you exit the preview, you \
are<br> returned to the very "top" of the file list. Talk about annoying as \
hell in a<br> directory with 600 files in it.<br>
<br>
See: <a href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198073" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198073</a><br> <br>
This is a major issue that for all practical purposes destroys a great \
deal<br> of konqueror functionality. Dolphin isn't a usable replacement for \
konqueror,<br> you can't even view a single man page or info page in the silly \
thing, among<br> many other areas where it simply isn't capable of doing what \
konqueror does.<br> <br>
Further, the dolphin backend destroys the ability to save the konqueror \
"File<br> Management" profile and have it restored when you open konqueror \
back up:<br> <br>
See: <a href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195808" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195808</a><br> <br>
What in the heck is the purpose of having a "Save View Profile File<br>
Management..." if it doesn't work. It works just fine in kde3 with the \
real<br> konqueror backend, so why -- until the kde developers get this fixed -- \
can't<br> you simply restore the konqueror backend to konqueror so it will at \
least work<br> and allow you to do the simple file management tasks that it was \
designed to<br> do, and has been doing for the past 3 years in kde, before somebody \
decided to<br> break konqueror by removing its working file management backend and \
"round-<br> pegging... square-holing" the dolphin backend underneath \
it??<br> <br>
Restoring correct konqueror focus handling would also greatly improve the<br>
ability for people with disabilities or an unsteady hand to use it as well.<br>
With the konqueror file management backend, you set focus on a file without<br>
activating it by clicking "anywhere" in the blank space between the end of \
the<br> file name text and the "size" column. That was a big target and \
sufficient<br> real-estate for people to hit who had unsteady hands or impaired \
vision.<br> That's now broken and you have to be able to hit that tiny icon just \
before<br> the file name to accomplish the same thing.<br>
<br>
See: <a href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195528" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195528</a><br> <br>
There were reasons that the konqueror file management backend worked the \
way<br> it did and now all the efficiency and elegance of that engine has gone up \
in<br> smoke because somebody had the cute idea to break konqueror to make \
dolphin<br> instead of being smart about it and leaving konqueror as konqueror, \
building<br> dolphin as a separate app and borrowing what was needed from konqueror \
instead<br> of destroying it as a stand alone application. I mean konqueror now \
can't even<br> remember the last folder a file was loaded from (using the \
file-open dialog)<br> in web browsing mode causing you to have to navigate the entire \
filesystem<br> tree for each and every file you need to attach for <a \
href="http://bugs.kde.org" target="_blank">bugs.kde.org</a>. That is a<br> huge pain \
when you are working from, for example:<br> <br>
/mnt/nirvana-cfg/srv/www/download/openSUSE_bugs/kde4/screenshots<br>
<br>
I'm doing my best to understand why all of this stuff is still broken on \
the<br> eve of the .3 release, and I am doing my best to help fix it (38 bug \
reports<br> in 30 days), but I must tell you it is very frustrating to have \
developers<br> take the position that "yes, we know what you could do with \
konqueror in kde3,<br> we know you can't now, but that isn't a 'bug', \
that is a 'wishlist' item."<br> Huh??<br>
<br>
Is mediocrity the new gold standard for kde? With kde3 shut down, one \
would<br> think more emphasis would be placed on making sure its functionality at \
least<br> existed in kde4 as a priority and not simply an afterthought.<br>
<br>
Don't get me wrong and don't take this the wrong way or as a slam of \
kde4. I<br> have committed myself to work with KDE4 as my primary desktop both on \
openSuSE<br> ( 4.2.90-139.1 ) and on Archlinux ( 4.2.95-1 ) and I am very impressed \
with a<br> majority of the great work that has been done. KDE4 is a damn good \
desktop.<br> However, there is an abundance of very basic functionality issues that \
seem to<br> be completely overlooked, swept under the rug, or basically ignored in a \
rush<br> to get the glitz and glamor aspects of kde4 ironed out. This approach has \
so<br> far made working with the desktop very very frustrating in multiple areas.<br>
<br>
I don't know what it will take to get the attention focused on these type \
of<br> problems, but it needs to happen without further delay. I still must go \
back<br> to kde3 for a number of things that simple cannot be done in KDE4. See \
eg:<br> <br>
<a href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198112" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198112</a><br> <a \
href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195623" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195623</a><br> <a \
href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195808" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195808</a><br> <a \
href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189583" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189583</a><br> <a \
href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197595" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197595</a><br> <a \
href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197911" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197911</a><br> <a \
href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198030" \
target="_blank">https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198030</a><br> <br>
These are just by way of example of the ones I have stumbled across and not \
a<br> complete list by any stretch of the imagination.<br>
<br>
We all have to same goal of helping make kde4 "the desktop" for \
Linux and one<br> by which all others are measured. If we are going to succeed, more \
attention<br> has to be placed on making sure it is usable and that the basic \
expected<br> things work. Now fixing the way konqueror works may not be a glamorous \
as<br> coding the new "plasma", but if the simple things don't work, \
nobody is going<br> to care how good it looks.<br>
<br>
If I can provide more information on any of the bugs referenced in this \
post,<br> just let me know and I will be happy to do it. I know the people assigned \
to<br> these at <a href="http://bugs.kde.org" target="_blank">bugs.kde.org</a> have \
limited time so if this list can also help with the<br> process, I don't mind \
working both.<br> <br>
Now I know this post will piss 1/2 the readers off and garner agreement \
from<br> the other 1/2, but the bottom line is these type of problems need to be \
fixed<br> and at least from my standpoint simply restoring the konqueror backend \
to<br> konqueror would fix a large number.<br>
<br>
--<br>
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.<br>
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC<br>
510 Ochiltree Street<br>
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961<br>
Telephone: (936) 715-9333<br>
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339<br>
<a href="http://www.rankinlawfirm.com" target="_blank">www.rankinlawfirm.com</a><br>
<br>
>> Visit <a href="http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub" \
target="_blank">http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub</a> to \
unsubscribe <<<br> </blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Jordi Polo \
Carres<br>NLP laboratory - NAIST<br><a \
href="http://www.bahasara.org">http://www.bahasara.org</a><br><br>
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to unsubscribe <<
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