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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Users
From:       James Richard Tyrer <tyrerj () acm ! org>
Date:       2008-06-10 19:35:52
Message-ID: 484ED798.2020409 () acm ! org
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Nathan Bradshaw wrote:
> You seem to have forgotten to quote the 'strong exception' that was 
> taken to your statement so here it is:
> 
> JRT: Yes, users are entitled to respect even if they are wrong.

Then I hope that you will start showing me said respect since you seem 
to consider me a user rather than a fellow developer.

> Nathan: maybe if you conducted yourself in any kind of polite manner

I am not kind and polite.  I realize this.  I am direct to the point of
being blunt.  But there is a large difference between not being polite
and making personal attacks that have nothing to do with what is being
discussed.

>  then people might show you some respect but your current behavior 
> warrants nothing but ridicule.

So, you think that your ridicule is justified.  That seems to contradict 
entitled to respect.

> You are exactly why developing in public is hard.

> so your characterization is, to put it politely, disingenuous to
> start with.

Actually not.  I do not consider myself to be a user.  I was concerned
with the disrespect that other users received.

>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, James Richard Tyrer <tyrerj@acm.org
>>  <mailto:tyrerj@acm.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> {Yes, I know that this is the development list and I am posting this 
>> here because it is a question for developers.}
>> 
>> I made the statement:
>> 
>> "[u]sers are entitled to respect even if they are wrong."
>> 
>> And someone took strong exception to it.
>> 
>> Do you agree with that statement, are users entitled to respect?
>> 
>> I ask this because, in the KDE project, there is a lot of negativity 
>> directed towards users.
>> 
>> What I think is, what should be obvious, that the KDE project has
>> grown to a size that its existence is dependent on users.
>> 
>> If there were no users, there would be no KDE project -- at least not
>> in its current form and size.
> 
> based on what do you make this statement?

Actually, what follows would tend to prove that.
>> 
>> One specific point is that some KDE developers are paid by Linux 
>> distros.  This would not happen if there were no users.  Where do we 
>> think that the money to pay these developers comes from.  It isn't
>> from the Easter Bunny, it comes from users that pay to purchase
>> distro packages.
>> 
> yes and as businesses they do what is in their best interests. If
> they thought that kowtowing to the every whim of over opinionated 
> non-contributers was in their best interests, then I'm sure they'd 
> direct their employees accordingly. How much money have you given to
> the distros such that they should be directing their employees
> accordingly? At the risk of the financial harm losing you would cause
> them?
> 
Getting back to my discourse on logical fallacies.  First there is an
extended argument and then the fallacy of composition.

>> Yet we treat users in a manner that I think needs improvement.
> 
> Users are treated by and large very well. Annoying trolls who make
> off topic posts and denigrate the developers and their are treated
> accordingly.

Why not simply ignore those that you consider to be trolls?  When you 
feed trolls, they only become more annoying.  Actually, I think that you 
are characterizing some users with legitimate questions and complaints 
as trolls.  By doing this you are not giving them the respect which they 
deserve.
> 
Note; there isn't a guide for how to be a troll on the web but there are
several guides to logical fallacies.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/

-- 
JRT
 
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