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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Fork of KDE4/Qt3?
From:       "Aaron J. Seigo" <aseigo () kde ! org>
Date:       2008-06-10 3:06:19
Message-ID: 200806092106.26103.aseigo () kde ! org
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On Monday 09 June 2008, Mark A. Taff wrote:
> On Monday 09 June 2008 17:18:09 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> Really Aaron? It wasn't possible to port kdesktop to Qt 4.x without writing
> Plasma?

we did port it. it needed lots of work. but you are missing what i'm saying: 
to replace the functionality you are looking with plasma took a lot of 
development. it isn't about kdesktop at all; the fact you fall back to that is 
just mind boggling.

and if you are upset i didn't maintain kdesktop, i refer to my earlier 
suggestion.

> It wasn't possible to ensure that the first thing implemented in
> Plasma was the KDE3 desktop functionality?

that's exactly what i'm saying. i understand that is going against your 
intuition, but intuition is often misleading. on that topic, this is an 
awesome read:

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

i *love* walking people through this in person as it totally destroys their 
faith in blind intuition. as it should be. intuition is no replacement for 
true reasoning and understanding.

> It wasn't possible to set a
> standard that KDE 4.0 should have a working desktop analogy prior to
> release?

anything is possible. show me the extra N full time developers, or figure out a 
way to make the schedule last 3 years instead of 2 without killing the 
project, or a way to port a half-craptastic qt4 version of kdesktop and still 
keep plasma, which is really the door to where the primary user interface is 
going (not must go, not should go, but *is* going whether we (kde) like it or 
not). go ahead, please, do.

> Isn't it more likely, that since you think the whole desktop analogy is
> broken, that you find writing a whole new system more interesting?

no. i find writing a whole new system painful and annoying. hell, i have to 
deal with this thread don't i? ;)

much easier would've been to just maintain kicker as i had for years and let 
someone else worry about kdesktop and let kde sink into the morrass as mobile, 
"web 2.0" (i hate that term), mac os x and even microsoft sailed on past us.

much, much, much easier and more fun.

perhaps i am a masochist, but its because i believe in doing what is right 
even if it isn't easy.

> More
> challenging?  That you find porting/reimplementing the traditional desktop
> analogy a low priority?

the fact that we've put as much effort into it as we have is your answer. it's 
been no small feat.

had we been looking for the easy, fun way out it was not this route.

thanks for completely discounting my intentions though. there is nothing quite 
so absolutley aggravating as someone else telling you what you are feeling or 
thinking. doubly so when they are wrong.

> > in fact, in the order you suggest, we'd completely screw over any
> > possible improvements of *any* sort down the line. your myopia is
> > dangerous, and your means of expressing it highly depressing.
> >
> > (and i'd note that "working" is really, highly subjective)
>
> I agree it is subjective, but by this point, I would hope you will just
> stip that many of us think that lack of basic features constitutes "not
> working",

"basic features". i never used your "basic features". many people don't.

yet i'm able to understand the need to fulfill your desire and have taken paths 
to make them happen.

> in a general sense, and that it is more convenient to just say
> "not working" rather than always having to objectively list every
> problem/bug/missing feature when we want to refer to the state of the
> desktop.

no, you can say, "this doesn't work for me". you don't need to be pejorative 
in the process, nor do you need to make blanket statements that are clearly 
not blanket statements.

> > > The Plasma devs need to realize that the Plasma desktop is problematic!
> >
> > what part of "you can have your traditional icon desktop" is hard to
> > understand?
>
> You keep saying that Aaron, and we have repeatedly pointed out to you that
> while that may be possible eventually, it isn't that way now, and won't be
> that way until at least KDE 4.2 (or at some point in trunk).

you obviously haven't read all the emails in this thread.

> As of right now, I cannot, in fact, have a KDE4 desktop with all the
> traditional features we expect.  If we could, we wouldn't even be having
> this discussion!  Isn't that obvious?  We aren't making this up just to
> irritate you.  We see this as a serious problem.

yes, i understand you see this as a serious problem for you.

here's the departure, however: you see it as a reason to bitch, moan, complain 
and pretend that you understand better.

i just write code towards an end point that will satisfy everyone. i also 
happen to know what i'm talking about while i do it and, just as importantly, 
don't talk about things i have no idea about.

i also don't try and tell you that your hoped for end (icons on your desktop) 
is one you shouldn't have. while people call me a tyrant and a dictator, i'm 
working my fucking ass off to get you what you say you need (not to mention 
juggling everything else i happen to do for this project)

even more importantly, i don't go around writing polemics that piss off other 
people who are working to get me what i want.

see the difference?

but here's my failing: i haven't done it fast enough to please you. 
interesting you feel empowered to demand that.

> > get past your emotional state and use your head. that should not be too
> > much to expect from people on a development mailing list.
>
> I have been emphatic, but I wouldn't say I've been emotional.

ok, maybe it's me but this sounded pretty emotional:

" Now we have interface tyrants that want to force users to work the way 
*they* think is the Right Way(tm).  I've got news for you--I don't give a hoot 
how *you* think I should work.  I want the freedom to work in a manner that is 
effective for *me*."

turn that around and read that aimed at you. pretend you've been doing what i 
have as stated above and then someone turns around and calls you a tyrant and 
a freedom stealer.

> I'm not the one who talks about how others don't know things, or aren't
> smart enough to understand, or are spiteful, or have arguments that are
> 'wind-bags of foul air', or are being pissed off.

well, you don't know what you're talking about. i can't change that. i'm sorry 
if it is embarrasing to have it pointed out in public, but you know what they 
say, "you can have people think you are a fool, or you can open your mouth and 
remove all doubt."

i truly hope you're smart enough, but you haven't exactly shown that you are.
i truly hope you're not spiteful, but your words surely don't give me much 
hope.

and yeah, at this point i'm pissed off. you come at me talking about tyrants 
and robbing your freedom? i haven't earned that.

> From where I sit, you
> appear to be the emotional one in this exchange.

i certainly do have emotions here. i invest heavily in what i do. you are 
trodding on that with a completely baseless case.

prick me, do i not bleed?
you, and people who *should* know better such as yourself, have not only 
pricked me once, you tear at me repeatedly. have for years. good job.

now if you feel justified in doing that, there's nothing i can do about that. 
it doesn't make your actions right, righteous or useful.

honestly, at some point i will just walk away. it's something that crosses my 
mind on a regular basis when dealing with this kind of crap from our 
"community". 

i'm sure you'll be able to pick up the slack that gets left behind.

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

KDE core developer sponsored by Trolltech


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