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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: [Announce] KPDF2-0.3.0 released
From:       jos poortvliet <jos () mijnkamer ! nl>
Date:       2007-02-01 20:40:55
Message-ID: 200702012140.59443.jos () mijnkamer ! nl
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Op donderdag 01 februari 2007, schreef Krzysztof Lichota:
> Aaron J. Seigo napisał(a):
> >> You can run KDE with Compiz, but it is not as well integrated as kwin.
> >
> > which is why we probably want to stick with kwin.
>
> Exactly.
>
> >> Composite extensions to kwin do not have publicity at all.
> >
> > right, it's not time for that yet.
> >
> >> I don't even know if they work.
> >
> > they do. i've used them and lubos has been blogging about it, even
> > putting up screen capture movies.
>
> OK, but it is not the same as being part of mainstream. Compiz is there
> for over half a year.

yes, but it's a poor windowmanager. you get useless eyecandy, and lose a good, 
usable windowmanager... i've tried it, but it's just nowhere near as usable, 
powerfull and stable as kwin (or metacity, i wouldn't even use it on gnome).

> >> And Compiz is a great
> >> marketing tool to convince people to try Linux. I can see a lot of "why
> >> should I use Windows, I have Compiz and it rocks" statements on forums.
> >
> > reality check: these people saying that are linux users. i know there are
> > people wanting to convince us all that compiz is creating a huge user
> > rush, but it's not (unfortunately). it is useful, but it's not all that
> > and a bag of chips.
> >
> > it's pretty important we keep our head about us when making decisions for
> > kde so we don't go chasing after rainbows and butterflies =)
>
> It is creating "cool factor" which is really important for young people.

well, yes, that's true. still, on the technical side, Vista is way ahead of 
Xorg+compiz/beryl (yeah it's already forked) anyway...

> Yes. The whole point of my e-mail was to put more effort into KDE3
> development, because KDE4 is long way to go. Unfortunately I see a lot
> of "don't do your cool project for KDE3, because we are now working on
> KDE4". And this cool stuff is going to KDE4, which nobody now uses
> (apart from developers, and even there not for primary desktop).
> Examples:
> - Dolphin (development for KDE3 stopped)
> - Amarok (1.4.5 is announced as last release in 1.4 series)
> - Koffice
>
> And it means that until everybody is using KDE4, nobody will see these
> improvements. So nobody will use them for another year.
>
> I realize this is developer's decision, but it is highly influenced by
> other developers and "don't do your stuff for KDE3" attitude.
>
> >> Compiz and a11y was just examples. I am talking about general climate -
> >> seems like most recent advancements are in Gnome arena.
> >
> > so let me say it again: that's simply not true. gnome has always tried to
> > put forward a "we're better than..." message; i've been watching this
> > happen since the corba and bonobo vs dcop and kparts days. it's never
> > been true and it isn't true.
>
> I am not saying they are better :)
> I am saying they keep delivering new stuff over the period when KDE
> development seems "stalled".

true. KDE 4 just is a lot of work, and even there is still stuff being added 
to KDE 3.5.x, we'll have to wait for a while. not that i'm not disapointed a 
KDE 4 release doesn't seem very close... but you can't rush this stuff and 
not lose things on the road.

> >> For example
> >> Beagle (not talking about its quality, but anyways) or NetworkManager
> >> (first developed for Gnome, then added frontend for KDE). They might not
> >>  be strictly Gnome apps, but they are associated with it.
> >
> > beagle: swahili for overrated. even gnome is moving to tracker, which is
> > much more like strigi than anything else. and the vandeoever, the strigi
> > architect, is the guy who is leading standardization in this area on
> > fd.o;
>
> I agree on Beagle. But it is in use and creates "look, it indexes
> webpages I visited!" cool factor. Strigi is not part of KDE3, so again
> -> KDE4.

yes it is, strigi is as independend from KDE 4 as it has ever been. it has a 
KDE 3 kicker applet, a plain Qt4 (and most distro's do have that package) 
search gui etcetera. it's not tied to KDE 4 at all.

>
> > it's also the project that nepomuk is working with most and nepomuk is a
> > unique feature set. again, we'll shout it from the roof tops when it is
> > time.
>
> Nepomuk: KDE4 :)
> And I really think it will rock :)
>
> > networkmanager: yes, it debuted first in gnome. kde has good support for
> > it now as well, however.
> >
> > wait. ... is that ubuntu i smell?
>
> Ubuntu is top distro on Distrowatch :)
> But not only Ubuntu: Suse is using Gnome in SLED, Mandriva also shows
> Gnome version for their latest improvements (Matisse), while search
> engine for KDE (Kat) has been abandoned...

true, true...

> >> Yes, I agree. But there are also things which might be improved without
> >> it, like infamous bug in disconnected IMAP which wipes e-mails
> >> (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63353). IMHO such improvements are
> >> more important than new technology in KDE4 (like Akonadi).
> >
> > except that akonadi is a way to solve that bug, among others which are
> > pretty much intractable with the design in kde3. given that, what do you
> > think now?
>
> If this bug could not be solved in current KDE3 architecture, then I
> think there would be something seriously wrong with KDE3 architecture.
> And I don't think this is the case.

of course it could be fixed. just like the bad text layout could be fixed in 
Kword. but it would take a huge amount of work, while it came for 'free' when 
it got ported to KDE 4. would you rather have those guys work on duplicating 
things instead of really ADVANCING the state of Koffice?

i don't think so.

> And promising to solve such bug in next "major" release seems a lot like
> promises of proprietary apps vendors.

well, you can check it already out, unlike proprietary software...

> > here's the greatest irony of the open source fanbase: they love what we
> > do but they also seem to think we're borderline idiots =)
>
> Just the opposite :) I think you are cool guys who want to work on new
> and fun stuff in KDE4, instead of dealing with old, boring KDE3 ;)

well, i guess that's true for many hackers here. not all, tough, that's why 
kde 3 still recieves some love. what about emblems support which might make 
it in 3.5.7 or 3.5.8...

> 	Krzysztof Lichota

superstoned

-- 
Disclaimer:

Alles wat ik doe denk en zeg is gebaseerd op het wereldbeeld wat ik nu heb. 
Ik ben niet verantwoordelijk voor wijzigingen van de wereld, of het beeld wat 
ik daarvan heb, noch voor de daaruit voortvloeiende gedragingen van mezelf. 
Alles wat ik zeg is aardig bedoeld, tenzij expliciet vermeld.

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