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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: KDE Linux/BSD distribution
From:       Derrick Wippler <derrick () logicalsi ! com>
Date:       2004-10-26 21:04:08
Message-ID: 200410261704.08665.derrick () logicalsi ! com
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OK, I can't help myself, I must respond. I've had the same thought as this 
fine fellow for a very long time. However I have thought about it so much I've 
taken it to the next level. 

There is nothing wrong with customizing KDE to suite a particular platform or 
some default set. In fact the default install of some Distro's deliver a well 
intergrated KDE platform. You now have this wonderful Distro where everything 
is smooth and sweet, But alas! Now you want to update to the lastest KDE 
release! You have 2 options, 1) Wait for the Distro to release the newest KDE 
release ( which they may or may not do depending on the release cycle ) 
2) Download the source and compile a default KDE install losing all your cool 
customizations and probably breaking half the binary packages in your Distro 
install.
3) Download a binary Distro created by someone with some spare time and no 
knowledge of the platform specific or Distro specific changes you are so fond 
of, along with probably creating un-meet dependences and breaking parts of 
the system.

For most newbie users the only clear answer is 1, For Power users 1 just isn't 
acceptable (well for this power user it isn't) , 3) Maywork but will also may 
cause hours of headaches and frustration. So a seemingly simple upgrade can 
cause a normal computer user screaming and yelling all the way back to (name 
Proprietary OS here). 1 is also not a good solution because you ruin the one 
thing that makes linux wonderful, Flexibility! and when I say Flexibility I 
mean in a non-company / Distro dependant way. (Name proprietary OS / or Linux 
Distro here) can easily control what software users are exposed to, and what 
they should use on their desktops purely because their (Distro/ proparty OS) 
is easy to use and install and upgrade. Provided that you use their stuff and 
only their stuff.  

As I've said before, having given this a great deal of thought has lead me 
down several paths to different resolutions, most of them include the basic 
problems I spelled out in the second paragraph and the solution most Distro's 
take. That is, to use X packaging system and X desktop and customize for the 
X platform so the upgrade and installation is easy. You just have to use our 
stuff.
	
Now before I continue and start making generalizations I want to pause and 
clarify what the common computer user is to me. Because people's experience 
with common computer users differs greatly. So lets define common PC user. 
The common PC user A) Knows what a window is and how the task bar / Start 
button works and has a rudimentary understanding of a filesystem. B) Knows 
how to surf the internet C) Knows how to install new software or games 
D) Knows how to remove software from computer E) has never touched a 
commandline in his/her life. 

Some would argue that our Common PC user is better off locked into using a non 
flexable OS/Distro, with easy non flexable Distro's and custom packages, 
however I don't think this should be the case. The solution is not to limit 
flexibility but make flexibility easier. 

Right now you can do 1 of the following on the linux platform to install 
programs. 

1) Tar/Patch/Config/Make/Make install
2) Binary Package
3) Gui Installer executable

By far 1 is the most flexable, 2 is the most common way, ( because is easiest 
on the developers when compared to 3 ) you use 3 when your a huge corporation 
and can spare the time and resources it takes to make an installer. But it's 
still usually not as flexable as 1, ( I've never seen an installer allow you 
to patch it's contents before installing, If you have please write me )

At this moment in time our "common user" wouldn't have any idea what to do 
with 1, of even what "tar" is and why it has such a funny name. But 1 is the 
most flexable, so we don't want to get rid of it, we just want to make it 
easier! forexample I think portage has made great strides in this area and 
building on top of that would be a great start. Konstruct is also a good 
example of a simplified compile and install system. But lets take it to the 
next level.

Users should be able to click on a tar file in their favorite file manager and 
a "installer helper" program walks them through the configuration with option 
compile and install. Which brings me to a side point. I think that software 
distributors should encourage patch files written by third party developers 
be included in the distributed file that would offer optional features or  
platform specific integrations that can simply be chosen from a list on the 
configuration dialog. If a compiled version (binary version) with the 
selected patches compiled in is already available it could be downloaded or 
included in the distributed file. ( depending on size of the software 
project. Binary diffs are very possible. ) If not, the source is patched with 
the selected third party patches then the "installer helper" program walks 
the user thru the rest of the compile and installation, Prompting for install 
directory's, compile time configuration options,  and possible menu icon 
additions based on the Distro that the "installer helper" program was 
compiled for. Then when installing the compiled software the "installer 
helper" could register the compiled software with the local package system or 
a shared installed package database, what would include all information for 
uninstalling the software. 

Once this system is in place, Mr Thompson's project could release a tar file 
with all the patches and optional patches in on nice tar ( or multiple tars, 
that could be supported by the installer helper ) this tar would install and 
configure almost any Distro that plays nice with the "installer helper".
 
Most of this functionality is available already to the command line / Internet 
savvy user. It needs to be brought to the common user who could then alteast 
have the option of installing a software package that would have most likely 
been out of his/her reach until then.

If you've read this far, I thank you for your time
I've tried to make as complete an argument as possible however much must be 
considered, when attempting to create a system that would bridge the gap 
between flexibility and usability. Etc.Etc.

--Derrick.

On Tuesday 26 October 2004 2:15 am, N. Thompson wrote:
> I'm just tossing around this idea I've had for a long time, I've always
> wanted a distribution that focused all of its attention on making the best
> KDE desktop available with the latest version and all the cool
> enhancements. Most distributions today try to include both KDE and Gnome or
> just Gnome and as such KDE often gets less attention then it needs during
> the development process and winds up having more bugs left in it then the
> other DE. Its no surprise to me that a lot of distributions try to hack
> together their own enhancements to KDE and even backport the latest
> features without taking time to adequately test them and all the
> distributions that focus entirely on KDE are commercial distributions that
> are understaffed and don't have the knowhow or motivation to put together a
> truly great distribution.
>
> So far the closest thing I've found to the wonderful KDE friendly Linux
> distribution I want is Slackware 10 with a lot of enhancements from
> KDE-look.org which fortunately for me were already available as tarballs
> otherwise I wouldn't have been able to apply any of them myself being as
> new to Linux as I am. I'm very new to Slackware but its my understanding
> that the only reason I was able to get KDE 3.3.1 was because of the issue
> with the kdemultimedia package in the included 3.2 version, I hope I'm
> wrong but I'd rather not find out with the next slackware release that I
> won't be fortunately enough to get some of the latest stable KDE releases.
>
> To avoid getting too long winded I'll just get to the point. I think it
> would be great if the KDE project would get together some people and make
> an entirely KDE centred distribution of either Linux or BSD. Such a
> distribution should focus mostly on KDE while having some good
> configuration tools and it should have the latest stable KDE build with all
> the cool enhancements that are stable and should only come with unnecessary
> non-kde apps on an extra CD which could contain stuff such as OpenOffice,
> the Gimp and Inkscape. The CD(s) should be broken up into stable, testing
> and unstable categories which should then contain their respective
> applications in subcategories and the entire thing should be based on good
> distribution or possibly made from scratch.
>
> I have personally found Slackware to have good package managements in that
> there is no dependency hell when installing something, I have also found
> RPM to have its merits however and I'm sure dpkg has its own as well. I'm
> currently unfamiliar with BSD so I cannot comment there. The goal of the
> distribution in case I forgot to elaborate enough earlier would be to
> produce the most complete KDE centred operating system with the latest
> stable version and all the cool enhancements free for personal use and then
> at any price including free for business use depending on which the project
> leaders deem most suitable.
>
> I have posted this here because I do not know the first thing about making
> my own distribution, if I did I would have started a long time ago. I think
> it would be a great project despite the already existing distributions out
> there because none of them focus enough on KDE to put together a truly
> stable, current KDE based distribution. I think it could actually work out
> if there was a real community effort and good leadership in action, I
> personally don't have much in the way of skills right now but I'm learning
> C++ and Qt and I'd be more then happy to contribute anywhere I could at the
> cost of any free time I may have. As a starting point I would recommend
> making something Slackware, RedHat or Mandrake based or perhaps seeing if
> another distribution which is having trouble starting up such as Ark Linux
> would take the initiative of being the distribution that would become the
> KDE Linux distribution.
>
> Right now I'm being a little enthusiastic, I would love to see a completely
> KDE oriented distribution that would do a better job at putting together a
> good KDE desktop then what is currently out there, I use KDE every day and
> know that the people behind it are great developers, I also know that Linux
> and BSD both have room for improvement and thats something that I would
> consider well within the grasp of KDE developers. Gnome already essentially
> has a lot of distribution of this type that are free, Fedora comes to mind
> along with Ubuntu and a fair sized handfull of others, KDE on the other
> hand doesn't really have any KDE specialized distributions aside from the
> commercial offerings which always seem to show signs of a release date that
> was much earlier then it needed to be. I'd like to know what everyone
> thinks of this and who would be interesting in spearheading the project, it
> doesn't have to be  distribution built entirely from scratch as long as it
> can be used to meet the goals set before it, I'd take the job myself were
> it not for my lack of experience with really involved KDE tasks, and since
> I'm only 18 and I'm still in school I wouldn't have time to head the
> project but as I said earlier, anyone interesting in pulling this off would
> have my full support and could consider my the first volunteer on the
> project.
>
> Anyone interested?
>
> >> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to
> >> unsubscribe <<

-- 
D E R R I C K  J.  W I P P L E R			Logical Solutions, Inc.
Software Developer					<derrick@logicalsi.com>

Simon's Law:
	Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.
 
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