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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: A case for sharing Desktop and home directories
From:       "Aaron J. Seigo" <aseigo () olympusproject ! org>
Date:       2002-12-04 2:16:19
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i'm going to ignore absolutely everything that isn't about your proposal in my 
reply because your proposal is all i'm really concerned about. i'm not going 
to let this become yet another hissy-fit argument about how everyone involved 
in kde development is either a moron or an asshole. in the last 2+ years i've 
either seen or participated in many such threads and none of them have ever 
amounted to anything worthwhile. so in the hopes of coming to a useful 
conclusion with this discussion, i'd appreciate it if you would do the same 
if you consider replying to this email.

> 3. Don't assume that because these people are sharp at programming, they
> are sharp at understanding people (users). 

i don't assume it. i know for a fact that some people around here are pretty 
decent at understanding users. more to the point, i read their objections and 
what they stated was by-and-large quite accurate. i can't simply say "hey, 
they are right but we should do it this way anyways."

> think that really sharp developers will end up doing really sharp wrong
> UI decisions and affecting the general outlook of my application working
> on KDE.  No thanks.  See?  Good technology isn't at all the decision

how does setting HOME == DESKTOP by default do this? or are there other real 
problems lurking? is KDE becoming less or more usable? i guess i'm asking: 
are you trying to say something about KDE in specific, or just reacting?

> 6. Why conduct usability research when people aren't even committed to
> fix what usability finds flawed?  FIVE minutes.

you conducted usability research on HOME == DESKTOP? hrm. sorry, i must have 
missed it. can you post links to this research so i could look it over? 

btw, i can make suggestions that will take you lesst han five minutes and 
absolutely no research to say we shouldn't do it. like: why don't we remove 
keyboard accelerators from menu items? see, some things require less research 
than others.

> > you list many valid objections to your idea in your latest email and
> > answer each one with what amounts to: "well, change the way you work, the
> > way your sys admin works and the way your applications work." for what? a
> > marginal improvement at BEST (and i don't think even that).
>
> That's a plain lie.  Reread. 

in your email you list "Points again, and short rebuttals". i'm asuming those 
rebuttals are your suggested solutions, fixes or work-arounds for the points 
against. every single one of thoes rebuttals involved changing existing 
application behaviour, user habits and current system set ups... 

> What I proposed generates minimal impact.

to you, perhaps. i'm looking at it from the perspective of supporting KDE in 
several locations with multiple users at each location where we use a broad 
array of applications ... it has less that minimal impact there...

> The other proposal (really stupid IMHO), about changing app working
> directories, requires much more developer and integrator work.  Plus, it
> won't work with many apps (pine, e.g.  Press Ctrl-T in pine to attach a
> file and see where it goes).  Really dumb.

exactly. it requires changes that we can't make. so instead of fighting 
against the world, we work with it. that isn't NIH, that's cooperation.

> NO one here or on kde-devel did:
> * impact/risk analysis
> * conclusive tests

did you? if so, i apologize for missing it. please post links so i can catch 
up with you...

i'd first like to see where this is a real world problem among users.

> * even think how it would be like to accept the proposal

i did think about how it would be like to accept the proposal. some even tried 
it out.

> I proposed a single change which doesn't impact already existing users

i'm concerned about both existing users using new installs *and* new users. if 
it isn't usable for existing users, why would it be for new users? or vice 
versa: if it is usable for existing (average, not power) users, why wouldn't 
it be for new (average) users?

> > you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. for those who
> > prefer it where HOME == DESKTOP, they can set it (including system wide
> > as you note).
>
> Yes.  The default is insane.  It goes against research and practical
> studies.  It goes against usability.  That's why I proposed the change.

i wasn't saying the default is insane. i was saying it is easily changed if 
you want to do so, without imposing such a thing upon everyone. that said, 
i'd like to once again see the research and practical studies. and i don't 
buy any of your "usability" arguments, not when stacked up against the 
negatives. this doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong, just that they lack 
meaningful evidence thus far and that there is much against them.

> There are problems. I pointed out the thing about users not being able
> to find files,

you have performed studies that show this?

> about legacy apps saving to $HOME,

like all the KDE apps?

> about duplicity of locations to store files

there is no duplicity. the desktop is just one more place. you keep assuming 
that the desktop is the place to put your files. how many people share that 
assumption?

i'd bet that if you ask _most_ desktop users they'll say your documents go in 
"My Documents". if you ask _most_ KDE users, they'll probably say "your home 
directory". of course, i haven't seen studies that say this, this is simply 
conjecture based on my daily experience with dozens of average users. i'd be 
happy to be shown otherwise.

>, about the absurdity and illogicality of
> hierarchically having a Desktop contained into the $HOME.

i see nothing absurd or illogical about it. 

> Which rearrangements/readjustments?  Can you list 5? 

you already did in your original email, under "Points against"

> out?  AFAIK even KDE apps save directly to the $HOME (or Documents dir,
> which by default seems to be the same folder). 

that's correct... and in 3.1 if they are the same you don't see a seperate 
Documents icon.

> Three KDE-mandated
> places to store files! INSANE!  Documents, Desktop, $HOME! 

insane as in "hard for users"? if so, studies showing this would be good.

> A support nightmare! 

just like My Documents and Desktop (not to mention My Pictures, My Music, etc) 
are a support nightmare. and no, i'm not saying that because MS does it this 
way that it is the Right Way (you can read past threads on this list about 
that to see my opinions on that), but rather that 90%+ of desktop users are 
in a situation where they have multiple folders to save to and i have yet to 
hear about that being an issue.

> Simplifying it down to one would bring great improvements in
> human-KDE interaction.

what you have there is a theory. it just needs proof.

- -- 
Aaron J. Seigo
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"
    - Albert Einstein
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