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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Fundamental KDE Library Problem..
From:       Matthew Tedder <matthew () tedder ! com>
Date:       2002-07-04 20:07:56
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On Thursday 04 July 2002 10:30 am, Andreas Pour wrote:
> John Gluck wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > All the old stuff repeats a nauseam...
>
> Hi,
>
> Being not a developer, but having spent years on the lists and seeing
> these dynamics repeated, I have a different (if, IMHO, more enlightened)
> view of this process.
>
> > 1- Suggestion = complaint.
>
> This really is a gross misconception, particularly inapt for the current
> "suggestion", to wit, that an OSS project stop being OSS and become a
> commercial project where someone imposes some blueprint and then some
> volunteer army implements it out of their love of following orders.

In this entire thread, no one gave anything resembling an "order" nor 
criticizing any KDE developer for bad work.  Quite the opposite.

How does one make a non-offending statement to raise awareness of a problem 
or suggest solutions without being perceived as "commanding" KDE developers?

Why are you creating antagonism here?  As a programmer, I take suggestions 
and constructive criticism as a blessing...  I don't automatic assume people 
are attacking me.  Users using and liking my software makes me feel like I 
truelly accomplished something...something meaningful.  User feedback is 
crucial for acheiving that.

Calm down a little...  Relax... Nobody I know is out to get you.  It's not 
like KDE developers haven't had a lion's share of praise for OSS work.  I 
only hope all the praise hasn't created a sense of arrogance that makes it 
hard for you to accept suggestions and constructive criticism.

You've taking things WAY out of context.

Matthew

>
> This "interpretation" - presumably genuinely felt, though perhaps
> another tool of manipulation in the toolbox of those making
> "suggestions" - flows often from people who, not actually doing any work
> themselves, have a better idea of what others should do.  And they are
> quite sure it's better.  So they do not just make a suggestion, but what
> I term an "incendiary suggestion" b/c it tends to rub almost everyone
> the wrong way.  Namely, the follow up their "suggestion" with some
> comment like "do this, or KDE will lose" or "do this or I will use
> GNOME" or any of a repertoire of oft-repeated "threats", insults, or
> other unpleasant ways to try to force implementation of the
> "suggestion". Or there is sometimes another tact, which is to pester, by
> repeating the suggestion over and over again, at which point, again, it
> becomes a demand.
>
> I have yet, perhaps a few exceptions I have forgotten aside, to see a
> developer react negatively to a true suggestion, as opposed to a demand
> or troll or flame.
>
> But what you term "suggestion" realy is, in essence, an unreasonable
> demand, insult, troll or flame, and, human nature being what it is, this
> elicits a defenseive or negative response.  Sure, it would be nice if
> developers had ideal emotions and never got annoyed, but then, there are
> far bigger problems in the world I would like to see solved.
>
> > 2- You don't like it = you fix it. (really just another incarnation of
> > #1)
>
> Typically this happens when the writer goes beyond the suggestion or
> request phase.  At other times, it is a valid response, as the developer
> is saying, I don't want to implement this, but if you send a patch, I
> would be happy to apply it.  So rather than seeing this as a total diss,
> I see this as an offer to cooperate - after all, there are quite a few
> projects, and developers, that don't accept patches.
>
> My hope for developers is, that they do consider ueer suggestions, and
> if it turns out that a suggstion is very popular, implement it, if
> reasonable to do within the framework of the development environment,
> the interests of other users, and the time available.
>
> What's interesting it that, at a time when KDE is already being attacked
> for being bloated, it gets equally attacked when not every suggestion is
> implemented.  You can even find some unscrupolous articles criticizing
> KDE for being bloated yet *and* for not including an entire library
> which only this one whiner wants, all in the very same article!
>
> > 3- We do this as a hobby = we don't want to learn about better ways.
>
> This is exactly the kind of flame / insult / rude commment I was
> referring to.  Look at how loaded this statement is.  "Better ways" -
> you assume your way is better, but where is your OSS software project to
> prove it?  Even with a way to prove it, the KDE development community
> has developed over years into doing things a certain way, and the people
> who do the development, like it that way.  So maybe you can come up with
> a better process, but if nobody working on KDE wants to do work on KDE
> using this process.  Then, what makes this new process "better"?  (Yes,
> yes, I know, anyone who would not use their free time to implement an
> idea which hypothetically may be better but certainly would stop the joy
> in working on the project should be shot, and, yes, yes, I know, anyone
> not wanting to take the risk of destroying an entire very successfuly
> development community for the sake of seeing if in fact this other
> methodology is better is a coward.)
>
> The second flame in this "suggestion" - as you seem to view it - is "we
> don't want to learn".  Quite contraire, people who don't want to learn,
> would not be working on OSS projects - rather, they would be watching
> TV, or be armchair devleopers like the ones making the "suggestions".
> In reality, OSS development is mostly about learning things and is done
> by people who love to "tinker" - take things apart, put them back
> together, see how they work inside - in short, by people who have a vast
> intellectual curiosity.  The people working on KOffice, for example,
> have, AFAIK never written an office suite before, and I am sure, they
> have learned a lot in the process, and went into it, knowing they would
> have to learn a lot.
>
> The misunderstanding often arises b/c the person making "suggestions"
> does not bother trying to learn anything about the community being
> addressed.  One day, they pop up on a mailing list, and proceed to say,
> "What you have been doing for years, with this highly successful
> project, is all wrong, listen to me, you little children, *I*, who have
> nothing to show for my skills, know how to do it better, and this is how
> you should do things, and if you don't listen to me, KDE will fail,
> fail, fail."  Pretty much, that is how a lot of these posts come across.
>
> And then when the "suggestion" is not fully embraced, the litany of
> complaints follow - you don't listen to users, you don't want to
> "learn", etc.  Even as a non-developer, not addressed by these comments,
> it is a heavy load and makes me very uncomfortable.  To me, the people
> making the suggestion may very well have good intentions, but, when they
> won't take no for an answer, they become dead weight, sapping energy
> from the community.
>
> So, in short, I attribute most of the problem to the fact that the
> people making the suggestions lack communication skills and, most
> importantly, lack any real understanding of teamwork, particularly
> teamwork in an environment of purely voluntary association.  And they
> also have unreasonable demands for the moral character of others - they
> demand that developers work purely to make the suggestor happy, that the
> developer's own happiness is a distant second to the happiness of the
> person making the "suggestion".  So, you tell me, who is being
> childish?  (To be clear, I am not talking about all suggestions here, I
> am talking throughout about "suggestions" - in quotes.)
>
> As an aside, this sort of miscommunication comes not only from people
> new to Open Source, but people who are quite steeped in it.  Not too
> long ago, there was a long discussion on kde-cafe, perhaps trickling
> over from koffice-devel, where some rather well-known Open Source
> personalities made "suggestions" about KOffice filters.  But these
> people, who should really know better, went *way beyond* making
> suggestions.  As my first comment in the thread was, it is abundantly
> obvious to everyone who has a brain - and yes, KOffice developers have
> brains - that filters are needed.  So the suggestion was not really
> useful, but still, had it remained a suggestion, fine.
>
> But the problem was, it did not remain a suggestion.  It kept being
> repeated, and repeated, and developers told, as per my generalization
> above, that KOffice is "worthless" without filters, that the developers
> "don't care" about users, etc.  It was quickly apparent that this was
> not a "suggestion", but rather a string of "demands" and, albeit
> probably not intentional, insults, all designed to whip someone to do
> what the "user" wanted them to do.  Demands that the people working on
> the GUI, or whatever else interested them, turn instead to writing
> filters, as if the skills involved in both cases were fungible and as if
> the motivation needed to work on either project were the same and as if
> anyone has the right to demand anything of anyone, particularly someone
> who already is doing us all a great favor by using their free time in
> such a productive manner (think about that, next time you are watching
> TV and not contributing your time in a way others benefit from).
>
> So this, in essence, is the disconnect.  You might want to term
> something a friendly suggestion, but, in reality, it frequently - and
> almost always when the response is negative - is not.  Rather, in my
> formidable experience of many years of reading these exchanges, it is a
> demand met with flames and insults when not carried out, similar to the
> insults you levy here, merely b/c a "suggestion", as you call it, was
> not carried out.
>
> > 4- You get what you paid for = I really really don't want to listen. Or
> > if you don't want to stroke my childish ego then go away and don't bug.
>
> Another clear exmple of where a "suggestion", not heeded, becomes an
> insult and flame.  This one sentence actually contains 3 falsehoods,
> insults and flames.
>
> (1) "don't want to listen" - well, with this kind of stuff you write, I
> would not be surprised if nobody wants to listen to that, as it's really
> just flaming b/c someone did not implement s "suggestion", as you choose
> to call it.  But, having read the thread, people did listen, and not
> only listened, but took the time to respond, in some cases multiple
> times.  B/c you did not like the response, you make a false claim, that
> nobody "listened".  So this is flagrant lie number 1.
>
> (2) and (3).  "childish ego", "stroke me", etc.  These comments
> represent a destructive, negative attitude, really, and unfortunately
> one the developers have to put up with time and time again.  I think
> these words apply more aptly to the author, then the people it is
> directed against.
>
> > 5- there are many newbies = What is junk will stay junk. Don't try to
> > mentor these people, they won't listen.
>
> Not even sure what this means, but, it does quit clearly sound like
> another helping of flames.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> Ciao,
>
> Dre
>
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> >> unsubscribe <<

-- 
Anything that can be logically explained, can be programmed.
 
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