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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Qtopia Developer contest
From:       Ralf Nolden <nolden () kde ! org>
Date:       2001-12-05 7:49:12
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On Tuesday 04 December 2001 11:15, Andreas Pour wrote:

Ok, I'm here in San Jose at the Sharp booth until tomorrow, just lying in bed 
reading through my mails to catch up before I will have a very stressful day 
tomorrow as my plane leaves after the show. Anyway, reading over this, my 
point towards Sharp officials over here is ( NB: *AFTER* making them excited 
about KDevelop and developing/crosscompiling for the sharp ) is that they 
have a very tight binding to companies to make contracts with. Why is that 
and can we change this and how can we change this ? (no secrets relvealed, 
just obvious thoughts)

1. Why: Sharp has been a hardware manufacturer for decades; all their 
software was proprietary and mostly self-develped. The move to use Linux was 
a *MAYOR* switch in their software department for devices. That's why they 
went with Lineo instead of the familiar project and opera, basically

2. Can we change this ? A: yes. I proposed to hire one *independent* free 
software advocate who understands the needs for a company to make money but 
on the other hand makes them understand that their contribution (besides 
using it) on the software side of linux is just a tipsy-tiny bit of the whole 
package of Linux. For instance, I would even say without the commitment of 
Compaq for the iPaq, we would still lag behind on Linux on handhelds a *lot*. 
An independent software advocate with a liberal, open mind and the capability 
to communicate what free software is about and how to deal with it in certain 
ways would help both sides. It will take a while due to the reason mentioned 
in 1. but it will happen. The sharp commitment is very new and currently the 
success of the device is more important than detailed nagging about things 
IMHO (without to nag about the nagging :)) In the long run this will pay off 
more. Cooperations which don't work out will break up sooner or later. Which 
in this case would mean, that if the Zaurus wouldn't sell, Linux would be 
ditched, easy as pie, isn't it ? For us, the commitment to Linux *is* 
important in the first place and for it to continue, the thing has to get a 
success.

3. How can we change this ? (I mean, from the side of KDE) 
- *talk* to Sharp. This is also a job of the KDE League (in particular you 
:)) to communicate with Sharp the benefits *from* KDE and what we could 
imagine to get back in an equal exchange. This requires building up trust 
into our capabilities. I did my best here to demonstrate that KDE *is* a 
leading force in desktop and application development plus the benefits of 
being free Software, and the crosscompiling in KDevelop did its good share 
about that. It's things like that that impressed people to use Linux, when 
things *work*. If the don't or people are not satisfied, it just depends on 
the level of dissatisfaction how soon one will ditch your project or the 
support for it. Give them time and let's do our share in the meantime, 
because that's what we want to do, programming. We'll push, but push 
appropriate, kinda like IBM is moving Linux, slowly but effectively. A 
paintbrushed Linux ad by IBM on the streetcorners of San Francisco and the 
simple TV ad cause more slight little earthquakes who will not crush down 
proprietary systems in a second but weaken the construction over time.

Remember: patience is your best friend in important times :))

Now, when it comes to Trolltech, they will provide a low-cost SDK for the 
shareware and commercial developers who want to make money with apps for 
Qtopia/QPE. We are writing GPL stuff/ free software. Simon makes the point, 
for us, this is the ideal solution as Qt/E is GPL. What I think is that it's 
the Linux *distributor's* debt to deliver rpms' for Qt/E  and Qtopia for arm 
and x86/ppc/alpha (desktop side). Then this whole issue about setting up a 
crosscompiling environment would be completely obsolete on Linux. The BUT 
side is that the SDK is still needed on platforms like windows if you want to 
have Shareware/commercial developers develop for QPE for commercial reasons. 
Shareware as almost exclusively a windows phenomenon is a model that drives 
the developers there to use the Qt API, and that is what will make them write 
cross-platform Qt/KDE apps over time. It helps though it seems weird and 
opposing KDevelop.

About prefering Opera, the point is again, they are a corporation. Plus, the 
zooming feature is really something that konq/e lacks *badly*, if you ask me. 
We're still free to offer konq/e even if it's not distributed by default, 
plus we should make those people (at Sharp) *aware* that it's there, and have 
that above metioned Free Software/KDE advocate *communicate* that.

So, the bottom line is that I think despite of all the corporate things going 
on, this is still the best tradeoff for now and now it's up to us to widen 
our respect that we will get as the right people to do the job by working, 
not discussing. Besides, my trip here has been paid by Trolltech and 
scheduled on the last minute. Plus Roland, Charles and Error403 are here to 
represent KDE besides me and we basically have a productive time :)

Ralf


> Simon Hausmann wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 08:54:49PM -0500, John Gluck wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > While it's true that KDE is built on Qt, this contest does not appear
> > > to be about KDE. AFAIK you need to have one of these Sharp PDA things
> > > and some kind of devel kit to be able to build and test an app.
> >
> > Not true. As far as I understood it the development takes place
> > using the standard Qt/Embedded 2.3.2 (which is available under the
> > GPL) and the Qt virtual framebuffer (which is part of every Qt
> > distribution) .
>
> Just to clarify (and I am not opposing the announcement on the list,
> heck, I submitted a dot story (in the queue) that includes this
> announcement), the SDK is *binary-only* (though of course you have the
> option of developing with KDevelop instead), and TT *is* promoting
> closed-source development on the Zaurus (which of course makes sense
> since they make their bread and butter there).  I am not criticizing it,
> just trying to keep the facts straight.
>
> > The final contestants will be given a free Sharp Zaurus
> > to do the final port (which is usually nothing more but recompiling
> > with a cross compiler) .
>
> Well, in terms of what's at stake for the prize sponsors, this strike me
> as pretty lame.  Sharp gets a lot of apps, which helps it compete with
> Windows CE/Palm handhelds and, if successfull, will make it tens of
> millions if not more; TT sells proprietary licenses at $1,500 a pop; and
> the developers that help set this money-making machine in motion get
> what -- a prototype for beta testing?  The $10,000 cash sounds more
> interesting :-), but I hope they consider upping the ante for Open
> Source apps (for commercial ones I don't care, their reward will be
> selling what they have).  And you should also note that by submitting
> your prize you authorize Sharp to use your likeness, etc. for marketing
> -- and, in fact, if they use you in a TV ad, the total amount in value
> of all prizes does not equal what they should rightfully pay you just
> for the TV ad (never mind the code).
>
> E.g., I would be much more excited if they offered $10,000 for someone
> to port KOffice to the Zaurus.  Or similar initiatives.  The
> restrictions do not permit people to contribute bazaar-style projects.
>
> And I am not sure I understand why they chose Opera over Konq-e.  Sure,
> Opera is better in some ways, but Konqueror is better in others; and why
> not spend the money paid to Opera to fund Konqueror JS development (like
> letting Harri work on it full-time, if he cares to, or funding others)?
> That way the benefits come not only to Zaurus users but all KDE users.
>
> And I am also not sure why TT is pushing a proprietary SDK over
> KDevelop.  Is this SDK better?  Why was the energy put into this SDK not
> used to make KDevelop better?
>
> > > It appears to be aimed at commercial developers more than us free stuff
> > > developers.
> >
> > I see it just the other way around. Everyone is free to contribute,
> > the software for development is free software (GPL) and there are a
> > hell of a lot of attractive prices.
>
> Not to knock the prizes, but except for the cash ones, they are all
> Sharp promotional items -- so the cost to Sharp could be shipping only
> (since e.g. they could likely be overstock or items which for some
> insignificant reason do not meet quality control for sale).  Not that
> I'm knocking the prizes, but I think what Sharp is giving the community,
> and what they are asking for in return, needs to be kept in perspective.
>
> Please don't take this as knocking Sharp.  They are being very smart,
> and I am very happy they have gone with Qt/Linux.  OTOH, I don't know
> why we should not be smart as well, and explore ways Sharp can
> contribute back, particularly if the Zaurus becomes very successful.  A
> sort of arrangement between Sharp and the community -- if the community
> helps Sharp launch a successful product, Sharp will contribute back to
> the community, such as by sponsoring Open Source projects which will
> work on the Zaurus and with KDE.  It's important to get this commitment
> early, otherwise it won't happen.
>
> An example where such a commitment is lacking is the choice to go with
> Opera over Konqueror, or the proprietary SDK over KDevelop.  If the
> argument is, "Konqueror/KDevelop is not ready", then the question is,
> "What are you doing to help get it ready?"  I know Simon has been
> working hard on Konq-E and Ralf has been working hard to support Zaurus
> development with KDevelop -- who's paying for their efforts?
>
> > And it's not that you loose your rights with submitting an entry. All
> > you do is grating the right to distribute and publish your entry.
> > And well, anyone disagreeing with that is likely not to be interested
> > in free software anyway ;)
>
> Ciao,
>
> Dre

 
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