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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: Settings vs. View
From:       Lenny <kudling () kde ! org>
Date:       2001-08-01 19:55:13
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On Wednesday 01 August 2001 21:07, Thomas Zander wrote:
> The View menu is for changing the way a user views the document. This
> mostly includes things like 'show fancy headers' (KMail), 'week view'

Which is totally and obviously different from Settings->Configure 
Kmail->Appearance.

> The Settings menu is for changing the look and feel of the area outside of
> the document, and non-UI things. Like toolbars and config-settings and
> such.

That's interesting, i know users who don't know the difference between 
Windows and Ms-Office and you ask KDE-users to distinguish things which 
happen in the same program-window. Do you really think every user understands 
the difference between showing a toolbar and changing the font-size? And the 
big question: why should he have to know the difference? Does he gain 
anything or is it just the way you implement the stuff?

> users POV, and I can understand that the destinction will not be
> immidiately apparent to the user.

Sorry, if there is an aspect of a gui, which "isnt immediately obvious" to a 
user, then it's simply wrong. Of course a user can can get used to 
"start->shutdown", but it's wrong from the first second. GUIs should adapt to 
the user, not vice versa, IMVHO. Of course you don't have to immitate the 
real world (for example throw your email into a virtual mail-box), but things 
should be as simple as "if you want to change something, just click the right 
mouse button on it". That works very well, don't make it harder than that.
As i said, to some/most users, showing a toolbar and changing font-size is 
just "i want to change this program", so why make the user run around and 
reproduce the developer's thoughts?

> This is also because not every KDE program does it the way it should.

Ah, the user don't understand it, the developers don't understand or like it, 
but it should be kept because there were decisions about it in the past.

> > Of course merging all the options in one menu-item wouldnt honor the
> > technical aspects perfectly.
>
> But, Yes, merging all into view is one option to go.

Name it how you want ( there are several alternatives spread all over kde: 
"preferences", "settings", "configure", just chose one or invent a new one), 
but put it into one place, please. 

> Lets just consider why we choose to do it the way it is now;
>
> - creating one view menu with all stuff from view and all GUI-stuff from
>   settings will result in quite a big menu. Big menus will be harder to
> search. Sorting it in submenus will not quite solve the problem since this
> will only make searching harder (the user will actually have to read the
> entries)
>
> - the options in view are the ones the user will most likely use more often
>   then the ones in settings (certainly when that RMB-select toolbars option
>   is implemented)

You could put the most used ones at the top. Or even go the MS way and hide 
the less often used entries (which i personally don't like). Burt again we 
are thinking about implementation issues rather than clearly state: "yes! 
configuration has to be at once place. even if we don't know how to do it 
right currently." That's why most web-pages suck, while designing the guys 
think "hm, how will i do it in html later on? that will be tricky, i will 
design it in a way it's easier to implement". Great designs come from people 
who give a damn on the implementation.

> - when MUI or a multiple view (on one document) interface are taken in
>   consideration the effect of the settings in the view verses the settings
>   menu will be quite different. View options are per document.

Im pretty sure that the difference is implicite. Take one of my last mails: 
of course the email-settings in kmail are throughout the application, but 
fonts-settings or similar stuff might be only for this view. If it wasn't 
this setting should be propagated to all views at once. What does the user 
expect when he closes a kmail-window with 12pt and one with 10pt font-size? 
Not much. But he can surely and will expect that the email-address is the one 
he wants and configured. I dont expect much confusion when we mix these 
settings.

Finally i want to excuse myself, if i might sound harsh, it's not ment this 
way. I just think this might be an important step towards the right direction 
for kde.

Lenny

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