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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    RE: kioslave location
From:       David Faure <David.Faure () cramersystems ! com>
Date:       1999-11-11 16:24:38
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Hi Kurt,

I didn't want to post anything on this subject anymore,
but your remarks leave me no choice.

> David Faure wrote:
> > > It's convenient for users if they only have to install 
> > > kdelibs to get a KDE program to work ;-)
> > 
> > Sure but that's not the case and will never be.
> 
> You are correct that it is not the case... but it "will never be" ONLY
> if we keep nit-picking about issues.  There is absolutely nothing
> inherent about KDE that keeps us from having a standalone kdelibs.

Once again it depends what you call "to work". As seen below it doesn't
mean the same thing for you and me.

> > The program will work (yes, even kmail now that we've agreed for
> > moving kio_pop to kdenetwork) but once more : you won't be able to
> > configure it (style, language, colors, everything else), nor use
> > read its help.  It all depends on what you call 'to work'.
> 
> 'to work', for 99% of people, means to do what you expect on a day to
> day basis.  Most people don't check help on a day to day basis. 
No they don't, but you can expect them to check it the first time they try
the app.
It makes no difference. Do you suggest they install kdebase when they 
install an app and then remove it afterwards ? ;-)

> If you are using a standalone KDE app, you don't care (or shouldn't have
> the right to complain, at least) about the "frills" like style,
> colors, etc.
Kurt, not everybody speaks English. There are a lot of users that don't
want English apps. And if don't know about LANG= or KDE_LANG= and don't have
kcontrol,
you're stuck. That's just an example. kdelibs contain a lot of customizable
things, but without kcontrol you're lost.

Anyway we agree, an app should "work", more or less, without kdebase
installed.
If the pop3 ioslave is moved to kdenetwork, the only app that wouldn't have
worked
(in the sense of basic functionality) would have been kmail and that's why
I said "the issue is closed".

> > > If you want to use Gimp, do you want to install gtk, gnome-libs,
> > > gnome-core and maybe even gnome-utils just to use Gimp?
> > I use gimp as well, but can I change its language ? I don't think so.
> > It's exactly the same thing : the apps basically works but you don't
> > get all the features you could expect.
> 
> So you would be willing to install a, say, 15M package (maybe 40M
> installed) just so you can change the language of one app?!?!  That's
> what you are essentially suggesting, here.

What do you suggest ? To make kcontrol a separate package ?

Are we arguing on nothing here ? Yes we are.
It's not only about the language !! If you want to have all that a KDE 
environment can give to your app, yes, you have to install kdebase. 
If it's too big and contains stuff that is not 'basic' to KDE, then we 
should trim it, and I already mentionned kdesu, kfind and some others 
(even suggested konsole).

> > Anyway, the issue is closed now, isn't it ?
> 
> This issue has been resolved in the same manner as every other
> non-technical issue that has come up in KDE lately -- tons of opinions
> and no clear result acceptable to everybody. :-(
That's not true.
1) It's been (almost) decided that kioslaves would move
2) A lot of people realised, including me, that you can't really get 100% 
of a KDE app working if you don't have kdebase. No configuration, no help
system, ...
It means the official answer to "what should I install to run app kxxx" is :

kdelibs mandatory, kdebase strongly recommended.

> > Developers only need kdelibs if they really don't want kdebase (i.e.
> > they don't use KDE, which I find strange for kde developers!!) and
> > users need kdebase if they want full functionality, but can skip it
> > if that's what they want.
> 
> David, you are being inconsistent, here!  This above paragraph is
> exactly what some of us are saying -- users need kdebase for FULL
> functionality but can skip it if they want.  The current situation
> with the ioslaves in kdebase means that they CAN'T skip it if their
> app needs ioslaves.
Wrong. Tell me which app doesn't app if the kioslaves (besides kio_file of
course)
are not installed ?
The (future) kmail issue has been solved, and for any other KDE app using
libkio,
they can skip kdebase if they are, for instance, not connected to the net.
I don't need kio_ftp and kio_http if my host isn't connected to the net,
and still apps work FINE !
If one wants an internet-enabled KDE, one should install kdebase. That's
what I called : skip it if you want but if you want FULL functionality you
have to install it. I don't see any inconsistency here.

Well that's just my opinion anyway, and it looks like Stephan has decided
for kio_ftp
and kio_http already.

--
David Faure
faure@kde.org - KDE developer
david@mandrakesoft.com - Mandrake
david.faure@cramersystems.com - Cramer Systems

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