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List: kde-community
Subject: Re: Apology
From: Valorie Zimmerman <valorie.zimmerman () gmail ! com>
Date: 2021-03-27 0:02:51
Message-ID: CACpu0260315PwxAn6wfVNJE8+OG_f1Y1d4G_h0FxW6wNZBuq_g () mail ! gmail ! com
[Download RAW message or body]
Hi Niccolò,
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:26 PM Niccolò Ve <niccolo.venerandi@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi.
>
> > Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.
>
> This is... plain out wrong. Off topic means off topic.
>
The KDE Community list exists, according to the subscription page:
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
The purpose of the mailing list is to provide a place for non-technical
> information and discussions which are relevant to the KDE community as a
> whole. All people who consider themselves to be part of the KDE community
> are invited to join. Conversations on the mailing list are respectful,
> considerate, polite and constructive following our KDE Code of Conduct.
> The list collects announcements, information and results from discussions
> in other places and offers a place to get feedback on non-technical
> questions or plans of relevance for the whole KDE community.
Anything else is off-topic.
> A RMS reply to a thread about RMS is NOT off topic.
>
The original post was about the FSF and their governance. Unfortunately
"RMS pro/con" hijacked that thread and caused this list to be moderated.
> If you want to shutdown the discussion, just say so.
>
I did so.
> The fact that RMS is not "the issue" (he's surely _an_ issue...) does not
> change that
> the kde community email was about RMS. I sent an email 10 hours *before*
> this apology.
> It was rejected just* now.* As offtopic.
>
I live in the US; most of the other mods live in Europe. If they had wanted
to act on your email they could have done so, but I believe I was the one
to reject your post. There was nothing time-sensitive in it.
I did not like that thread, but this handling of the situation is plain out
> bad. This apology
> mail only made things worse. If I did not know about KDE, I'd say that
> they are censoring
> the discussion. Instead I'm just embarrassed.
>
Requiring lists to be on-topic is not censorship, which *governments* do.
We're volunteers trying to keep lists "respectful, considerate, polite and
constructive." Had the discussion kept to that, even though off-topic, it
probably could have been solved by a warning.
Even the original motivation for putting the ML under moderation could've
> been worded better,
> it raised complaints from some people I know.
>
Yes, I should have followed my own advice and removed my personal thoughts.
That was not constructive.
Putting an email under manual moderation requires that manual moderation to
> happen much,
> much faster than 10 hours. If help is needed in moderating, please say so.
> If you want to shutdown the discussion about RMS, say it was getting too
> aggressive, not that
> it's "offtopic".
>
> Niccolò
>
We're all volunteers. Help is always welcome! List administration is not
the most interesting job, but it is not usually difficult either. If you
are interested, write to "$listname-owner@kde.org" (in this case,
kde-community-owner at kde.org) and volunteer your services.
Valorie
>
> Il giorno ven 26 mar 2021 alle ore 20:36 Valorie Zimmerman <
> valorie.zimmerman@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> Hello my friends,
>>
>> When I put this list on emergency moderation, I felt that this was
>> necessary. It still seems so, but I want to lift moderation as soon as
>> possible.
>>
>> I may have played a part in continuing the negative thread that "wouldn't
>> die" by expressing my own opinion. I should have followed my own advice and
>> walked away after writing my email and then removed parts which expressed a
>> personal opinion.
>>
>> While I may disagree with others about the value of RMS to Free Software,
>> he is not the issue. The more organizations I've been involved with, the
>> more I realize the value of good governance. The FSF has been critical to
>> the growth of Free Software, and the recent news about their Board is very
>> worrying.
>>
>> My statement did not do anything to convey that or to help, and for that
>> I am truly sorry.
>>
>> Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.
>>
>> Thanks to those of you who called my attention to my part in all of this.
>>
>> All the best to each of you, to KDE and all of the Free software
>> communities,
>>
>> Valorie
>>
>> --
>> http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her
>>
>
>
> --
> Niccolò Venerandi
>
>
--
http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Niccolò,</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On \
Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:26 PM Niccolò Ve <<a \
href="mailto:niccolo.venerandi@gmail.com">niccolo.venerandi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi.</div><div><br><div>> Posts about Richard \
Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed. </div><div><br></div><div>This is... plain out wrong. \
Off topic means off topic.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The KDE Community list \
exists, according to the subscription page: <a \
href="https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community">https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community</a></div><div><br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The purpose of the mailing list is to provide a place for \
non-technical information and discussions which are relevant to the KDE community as a whole. All people \
who consider themselves to be part of the KDE community are invited to join. Conversations on the mailing \
list are respectful, considerate, polite and constructive following our KDE Code of Conduct.<br>The list \
collects announcements, information and results from discussions in other places and offers a place to \
get feedback on non-technical questions or plans of relevance for the whole KDE \
community.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Anything else is off-topic. </div><div> </div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>A RMS reply to a thread about RMS is NOT off \
topic.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The original post was about the FSF and their \
governance. Unfortunately "RMS pro/con" hijacked that thread and caused this list to be \
moderated. </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>If you want to \
shutdown the discussion, just say so.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I did so. \
</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>The fact that RMS is not "the \
issue" (he's surely _an_ issue...) does not change that <br></div><div>the kde community email \
was about RMS. I sent an email 10 hours <b>before</b> this apology. <br></div><div>It was rejected \
just<b> now.</b> As offtopic.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I live in the US; most of \
the other mods live in Europe. If they had wanted to act on your email they could have done so, but I \
believe I was the one to reject your post. There was nothing time-sensitive in it. \
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px \
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>I did not like that thread, but this \
handling of the situation is plain out bad. This apology</div><div>mail only made things worse. If I did \
not know about KDE, I'd say that they are censoring</div><div>the discussion. Instead I'm just \
embarrassed.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Requiring lists to be on-topic is not \
censorship, which *governments* do. We're volunteers trying to keep lists "respectful, \
considerate, polite and constructive." Had the discussion kept to that, even though off-topic, it \
probably could have been solved by a warning.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr"><div><div>Even the original motivation for putting the ML under moderation could've been \
worded better,</div><div>it raised complaints from some people I \
know.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I should have followed my own advice and \
removed my personal thoughts. That was not constructive. </div><div><br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Putting an email under manual moderation \
requires that manual moderation to happen much,</div><div>much faster than 10 hours. If help is needed in \
moderating, please say so.</div><div>If you want to shutdown the discussion about RMS, say it was getting \
too aggressive, not that</div><div>it's \
"offtopic".</div><div><br></div><div>Niccolò<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We're \
all volunteers. Help is always welcome! List administration is not the most interesting job, but it is \
not usually difficult either. If you are interested, write to "$<a \
href="mailto:listname-owner@kde.org">listname-owner@kde.org</a>" (in this case, kde-community-owner \
at <a href="http://kde.org">kde.org</a>) and volunteer your \
services.</div><div><br></div><div>Valorie</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr"><div><div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il \
giorno ven 26 mar 2021 alle ore 20:36 Valorie Zimmerman <<a href="mailto:valorie.zimmerman@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">valorie.zimmerman@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr">Hello my friends,<div><br></div><div>When I put this list on emergency moderation, I felt that \
this was necessary. It still seems so, but I want to lift moderation as soon as possible. \
</div><div><br></div><div>I may have played a part in continuing the negative thread that \
"wouldn't die" by expressing my own opinion. I should have followed my own advice and \
walked away after writing my email and then removed parts which expressed a personal opinion. \
</div><div><br>While I may disagree with others about the value of RMS to Free Software, he is not the \
issue. The more organizations I've been involved with, the more I realize the value of good \
governance. The FSF has been critical to the growth of Free Software, and the recent news about their \
Board is very worrying. <br><br>My statement did not do anything to convey that or to help, and for that \
I am truly sorry. </div><div><br></div><div>Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be \
allowed. </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks to those of you who called my attention to my part in all of \
this. </div><div><br></div><div>All the best to each of you, to KDE and all of the Free software \
communities,</div><div><br></div><div>Valorie</div><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div \
dir="ltr"><div><a href="http://about.me/valoriez" target="_blank">http://about.me/valoriez</a> - \
pronouns: she/her<br></div></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div \
dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Niccolò Venerandi<br><div \
style="font-size:small"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><a \
href="http://about.me/valoriez" target="_blank">http://about.me/valoriez</a> - pronouns: \
she/her<br><br><br></div></div></div></div>
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