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List:       kde-community
Subject:    Re: Apology
From:       Valorie Zimmerman <valorie.zimmerman () gmail ! com>
Date:       2021-03-27 0:02:51
Message-ID: CACpu0260315PwxAn6wfVNJE8+OG_f1Y1d4G_h0FxW6wNZBuq_g () mail ! gmail ! com
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Hi Niccolò,

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:26 PM Niccolò Ve <niccolo.venerandi@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi.
>
> > Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.
>
> This is... plain out wrong. Off topic means off topic.
>

The KDE Community list exists, according to the subscription page:
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community

The purpose of the mailing list is to provide a place for non-technical
> information and discussions which are relevant to the KDE community as a
> whole. All people who consider themselves to be part of the KDE community
> are invited to join. Conversations on the mailing list are respectful,
> considerate, polite and constructive following our KDE Code of Conduct.
> The list collects announcements, information and results from discussions
> in other places and offers a place to get feedback on non-technical
> questions or plans of relevance for the whole KDE community.


Anything else is off-topic.


> A RMS reply to a thread about RMS is NOT off topic.
>

The original post was about the FSF and their governance. Unfortunately
"RMS pro/con" hijacked that thread and caused this list to be moderated.


> If you want to shutdown the discussion, just say so.
>

I did so.


> The fact that RMS is not "the issue" (he's surely _an_ issue...) does not
> change that
> the kde community email was about RMS. I sent an email 10 hours *before*
> this apology.
> It was rejected just* now.* As offtopic.
>

I live in the US; most of the other mods live in Europe. If they had wanted
to act on your email they could have done so, but I believe I was the one
to reject your post. There was nothing time-sensitive in it.

I did not like that thread, but this handling of the situation is plain out
> bad. This apology
> mail only made things worse. If I did not know about KDE, I'd say that
> they are censoring
> the discussion. Instead I'm just embarrassed.
>

Requiring lists to be on-topic is not censorship, which *governments* do.
We're volunteers trying to keep lists "respectful, considerate, polite and
constructive." Had the discussion kept to that, even though off-topic, it
probably could have been solved by a warning.

Even the original motivation for putting the ML under moderation could've
> been worded better,
> it raised complaints from some people I know.
>

Yes, I should have followed my own advice and removed my personal thoughts.
That was not constructive.

Putting an email under manual moderation requires that manual moderation to
> happen much,
> much faster than 10 hours. If help is needed in moderating, please say so.
> If you want to shutdown the discussion about RMS, say it was getting too
> aggressive, not that
> it's "offtopic".
>
> Niccolò
>

We're all volunteers. Help is always welcome! List administration is not
the most interesting job, but it is not usually difficult either. If you
are interested, write to "$listname-owner@kde.org" (in this case,
kde-community-owner at kde.org) and volunteer your services.

Valorie

>
> Il giorno ven 26 mar 2021 alle ore 20:36 Valorie Zimmerman <
> valorie.zimmerman@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> Hello my friends,
>>
>> When I put this list on emergency moderation, I felt that this was
>> necessary. It still seems so, but I want to lift moderation as soon as
>> possible.
>>
>> I may have played a part in continuing the negative thread that "wouldn't
>> die" by expressing my own opinion. I should have followed my own advice and
>> walked away after writing my email and then removed parts which expressed a
>> personal opinion.
>>
>> While I may disagree with others about the value of RMS to Free Software,
>> he is not the issue. The more organizations I've been involved with, the
>> more I realize the value of good governance. The FSF has been critical to
>> the growth of Free Software, and the recent news about their Board is very
>> worrying.
>>
>> My statement did not do anything to convey that or to help, and for that
>> I am truly sorry.
>>
>> Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.
>>
>> Thanks to those of you who called my attention to my part in all of this.
>>
>> All the best to each of you, to KDE and all of the Free software
>> communities,
>>
>> Valorie
>>
>> --
>> http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her
>>
>
>
> --
> Niccolò Venerandi
>
>

-- 
http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her

[Attachment #3 (text/html)]

<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi  Niccolò,</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:26 PM Niccolò Ve &lt;<a \
href="mailto:niccolo.venerandi@gmail.com">niccolo.venerandi@gmail.com</a>&gt; \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px \
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi.</div><div><br><div>&gt; Posts \
about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.  </div><div><br></div><div>This \
is... plain out wrong. Off topic means off \
topic.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The KDE Community list exists, \
according to the subscription  page:  <a \
href="https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community">https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community</a></div><div><br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The purpose of the mailing list is to provide a place for \
non-technical information and discussions which are relevant to the KDE community as a whole. \
All people who consider themselves to be part of the KDE community are invited to join. \
Conversations on the mailing list are respectful, considerate, polite and constructive \
following our KDE Code of Conduct.<br>The list collects announcements, information and results \
from discussions in other places and offers a place to get feedback on non-technical questions \
or plans of relevance for the whole KDE community.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Anything \
else is off-topic.  </div><div>  </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px \
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>A \
RMS reply to a thread about RMS is NOT off \
topic.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The original post was about the FSF \
and their governance. Unfortunately &quot;RMS pro/con&quot; hijacked that thread and caused \
this list to be moderated.  </div><div>  </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr"><div><div>If you want to shutdown the discussion, just say \
so.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I did so.  </div><div>  </div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>The fact that RMS is not &quot;the \
issue&quot; (he&#39;s surely _an_ issue...) does not change that <br></div><div>the kde \
community email was about RMS. I sent an email 10 hours <b>before</b> this apology. \
<br></div><div>It was rejected just<b> now.</b> As \
offtopic.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I live in the US; most of the other \
mods live in Europe. If they had wanted to act on your email they could have done so, but I \
believe I was the one to reject your post. There was nothing time-sensitive in it.  \
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>I did \
not like that thread, but this handling of the situation is plain out bad. This \
apology</div><div>mail only made things worse. If I did not know about KDE, I&#39;d say that \
they are censoring</div><div>the discussion. Instead I&#39;m just \
embarrassed.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Requiring lists to be on-topic \
is not censorship, which *governments* do. We&#39;re volunteers trying to keep lists \
&quot;respectful, considerate, polite and constructive.&quot; Had the discussion kept to that, \
even though off-topic, it probably could have been solved by a \
warning.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Even \
the original motivation for putting the ML under moderation could&#39;ve been worded \
better,</div><div>it raised complaints from some people I \
know.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I should have followed my own \
advice and removed my personal thoughts. That was not constructive.  \
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Putting \
an email under manual moderation requires that manual moderation to happen much,</div><div>much \
faster than 10 hours. If help is needed in moderating, please say so.</div><div>If you want to \
shutdown the discussion about RMS, say it was getting too aggressive, not \
that</div><div>it&#39;s \
&quot;offtopic&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>Niccolò<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We&#39;re \
all volunteers. Help is always welcome! List administration is not the most interesting job, \
but it is not usually difficult either. If you are interested, write to &quot;$<a \
href="mailto:listname-owner@kde.org">listname-owner@kde.org</a>&quot; (in this case, \
kde-community-owner at <a href="http://kde.org">kde.org</a>) and volunteer your \
services.</div><div><br></div><div>Valorie</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr"><div><div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_attr">Il giorno ven 26 mar 2021 alle ore 20:36 Valorie Zimmerman &lt;<a \
href="mailto:valorie.zimmerman@gmail.com" target="_blank">valorie.zimmerman@gmail.com</a>&gt; \
ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hello my \
friends,<div><br></div><div>When I put this list on emergency moderation, I felt that this was \
necessary. It still seems so, but I want to lift moderation as soon as possible.  \
</div><div><br></div><div>I may have played a part in continuing the negative thread that \
&quot;wouldn&#39;t die&quot; by expressing my own opinion. I should have followed my own advice \
and walked away after writing my email and then removed parts which expressed a personal \
opinion.  </div><div><br>While I may disagree with others about the value of RMS to Free \
Software, he  is not the issue. The more organizations I&#39;ve been involved with, the more I \
realize the value of good governance. The FSF has been critical to the growth of Free Software, \
and the recent news about their Board is very worrying.  <br><br>My statement did not do \
anything to convey that or to help, and for that I am truly sorry.  \
</div><div><br></div><div>Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.  \
</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks to those of you who called my attention to my part in all of \
this.  </div><div><br></div><div>All the best to each of you, to KDE and all of the Free \
software communities,</div><div><br></div><div>Valorie</div><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div \
dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><a href="http://about.me/valoriez" \
target="_blank">http://about.me/valoriez</a>  - pronouns: \
she/her<br></div></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div \
dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Niccolò Venerandi<br><div \
style="font-size:small"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><a \
href="http://about.me/valoriez" target="_blank">http://about.me/valoriez</a>  - pronouns: \
she/her<br><br><br></div></div></div></div>



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