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List:       koffice-devel
Subject:    Bug#43832: Last word on the initial dialog
From:       Joseph Manojlovich <josephm () mail ! sis ! pitt ! edu>
Date:       2002-06-13 1:26:16
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> Without going into this long monologue I want to point out that KWord 
> is an application that has been build on the premise of how it should 
> be done.  I am in a position where I deal with professional DTP users and (lots 
> more) simple users. 

There is no "right way" in user interfaces. You have some general rules
to follow, then it's mainly usability studies and watching the
application in action. Have you done random samples with other users,
other than the "professional DTP" users actually using Koffice and
watch their productivity?

I (and the other poster) also work in a lab situations with 100s of
normal users. Most of these people can hardly log into the computer. If
I even say "template" to them, I'm speaking a second language. If you
are only going after professional writers, who doubtfully would be
using an office suite in the first place, but would rather be using
tools such as Latex and Matlab, then the UI can stand. However, if you
are going for a general light weight office suite to be used in
university, high/grade school, and home settings, as this suite should,
then there is nothing wrong with conforming to certain UI designs
without effecting the fuctionality, but increasing usability.

> Your points are well taken, but I am not going follow the way things 
> have been done for millenia and nobody changes because nobody dares 
> to simply because you want to, you are going to have better arguments 
> then that. 

I am not saying you can not make changes to an existing interface, but
in this case, the UI change in question is an "in your face" style of
UI change and not everyone likes something that is "pushy." Logically,
it just does not seem in place for applications such as kword, kspread,
and kivio where 9 times out of 10 you are using the application for the
same purpose the same way with the same setting every time. Please
think this through logically. Kpresenter, on the other hand, is fine
because the dialog has much more functionality and serves a much
different purpose in the overall scheme of things in that you are not
creating the same style presentation every single time. As for the
other apps, if one likes the current behaviour, fine, but if one finds
it obtrusive, then there should be an easy way  to turn the dialog off
and just go to the default page.

> In short; the argument 'I don't want to see this dialog since I never 
> use it' is not a good enough argument for me, as I showed in other emails. 
> I have not heard other arguments since 'I am sure others feel like me' 
> is not much more of an argument, now is it? 

And I haven't seen a good argument in favor of the current system,
other than it's "the right way". Not much of an argument their either.
Who said that your way was the "right way"?

> Its not hard; but another option in the dialog only has the reversed 
> effect; more widgets on screen is bad. 

Then bury it somewhere deep in the general settings of each
application.  By using some brain storming, I am sure a way can be
arrived at that will suite most everyone's needs.  It's not like I'm
talking about a total redesign of the UI, just a simplification for
people who aren't "professionals", and will never be using anything
other than the default template anyway.

Look, I am not questioning your judgement as a professional programmer,
but let face it the majority of users do not think as a programmer and
should never have to. For example, as administer of a lab that gives
services to liberal arts students, who are not interested in DTP but
rather just want to type research papers and turn them in for a grade,
I have the obligation to give them an environment that they can feel
comfortable with, which makes their, as well as my, lives more
productive. These users are used to MS Office.  The goal of the KDE
project, as the kde.org states, is to bring *nix to the desktop;
therefore, greater usability and greater flexibily in all applications,
which gives users and/or administrators the ability to tailor such
things to their needs is a critical part to pushing *nix onto the
desktop.

I know this sounds like a big argument for such a small UI change, but
if people are used to one way, they should not have to change just
because an engineer thinks they should.  Ford Motor Corporation learded
this lesson in the late 50s with the Edsel (a perfectly engineered car
that flopped miserably because it was not what the end users wanted!).
Again, I am not asking you to remove the dialog box.  New users may
like the dialog and get used to it and that is fine.  They can leave it
on.  But others surely will find it annoying and will want to get rid
of it and they should be able to and go back to a way they feel
comfortable with.

If you think my think that my conclusions are pointless, why not have
this question, as well as any other general UI concerns in koffice,
answered by the masses in the form of a poll on dot.kde.org, where a
good sample of KDE, non-kde, developers, and non-devleopers mingle.
This would be the objective approach to this and any other, as I'm sure
there are, UI questions.

Since it seems that I'm asking the impossible, I'll probably end up
wriing my own patch to do this. Guess that's the advantage of GPL
software, it's not held back by a single dictatorship authority.

Well, I'm done with this. I've already exerted way too much energy.
Who would have expected such an unprofessional response to a simple UI
design question. You go ahead and do it "the right way" and see how
many developers you can muster up with that "my way or the highway"
attitude and watch the Gnome office suite or StarOffice gain even more
ground. Please listen to these suggestions and get the opinions of
other non-professionals before dismissing this suggestion.

Email me personally with a professional and objective response if you
want, since I'm not on this mailing list. However, I am now done with
this matter, and will probably cease to deal with the KOffice devel
team again, if this is the type of constructive criticism that
results.


(Complete bug history is available at http://bugs.kde.org/db/43/43832.html)
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