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List:       kde-accessibility
Subject:    Re: KDE/ QT/ Plasma accessibility contributions
From:       chrys <chrys () linux-a11y ! org>
Date:       2018-10-14 19:41:28
Message-ID: 9ccbc2ee-7553-2a44-5454-37994f622e46 () linux-a11y ! org
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Howdy Federik, Howdy List,

> Just use phabricator directly,
ok i will do so.

> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did attempt
> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good progress
> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
That would be cool :). its very needed.
I think the gnome world is doing some magic special style handling that 
orca seems to translate this into ATK_STATE_SELECTED state.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/commit/7d44c666ff59c437d1e3b7111dc51460f5e33c95


> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost works, but for
> example misses some label, just to get started on something that will be
> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be a bit
> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build and work,
> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
agree. sadly this was a busy weekend. so i was just able to do some 
basic tests on KDE 5.14.
Overall I think its good to prio the following elements:
- Kicker
     1. application overview: better navigation tab should switch 
between panels, arrowing should go to next element in _current_ panel 
(blind people dont see the visual barriers on the screen, so the 
keyboard need to respect them as well)
     2. application overview: "apps and documentation" and 
"Miniprograms" don't have an label (maybe this is a good beginner task 
and example we want to do)
     3. application starter: does not work with orca here (since it is 
the default mode, it would be good if it is accessible))
     4. application starter: make "bookmark" section keyboard navigable
- desktop icons
     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
     2. Give them an a11y label
- task switcher (even if it is more complicated - its an basic component 
to use an desktop)
     1. make it able to speak

because those components are the most basic for desktop to use it. if 
those are working out well. more users will follow to test (and even 
maybe more developers in that area). I would pin the list above (what is 
not already there) down to phabricator if you are fine with.

more "advanced" stuff like tray area, workspace switcher and access to 
individual plasmoids should follow.
For access to plasmodis i have an cool idea:
Is there an way to focus an plasmoid via an API? I read about how to get 
all running plasmoids. maybe i can bake out an "plasmoid switcher" where 
you can focus any element on your desktop via an hierarchic menu (maybe 
with some additional information).
like this:
pressing an shortcut opens an menu (what represents the containers on 
the desktop) and an search box. if you open an menu entry you get all 
"child" plasmoids. so plasmoids what are embedded int the container):
[search] (type ahead search for plasmoids)
[Bottom Panel] -> submenu{kicker, window switcher,workspace switcher, 
Tray -> {TrayIcon1, TrayIcon2}} (whatever is on Top Panel)
[Top Panel] -> submenu{Clock(12:00 AM), Volume(60 %), Network(WIFI: 
<SSID> signal 50%)}
[Desktop] -> submenu{Weather(Cloudy, 12 degrees), Clock(12:00 AM)..... 
}(what ever is o desktop)

pressing enter will focus the selected element. maybe its even useful 
for non handicapped power uses users.

> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to get Orca
> working in general, that would be great!
i can do this. i will register a blog as soon as i figured how (lol) and 
will write it down there.
special for KDE users is very useful to know that there is an shortcut 
by default to start it ( in fact very awsome!, because it means starting 
the screenreader is just one keyboard stroke away).

cheers chrys

Am 14.10.18 um 10:26 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
> Hi Chrys,
>
> It's awesome to have you on board, reading your mail makes me very happy :)
>
> On fredag 12. oktober 2018 16:06:10 CEST chrys wrote:
>> Howdy Frederik,
>>
>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>> Yes, strike! :) worked for me. I registered and can login now.
>>
>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the plasma
>>> mailing list as a first step.
>> so should i do a more detailed list of keyboard navigation flaws/ needs
>> for some basic stuff?should i sent all that stuff to the list? or should
>> i write it directly to the phabricator project? what brings me to
>> another question: am i allowed to comment/ assign stuff (of course to
>> myself) on phabricator? So keep it a little up to date?
> Just use phabricator directly, it's much better for tracking purposes and to
> have discussions on individual points. Especially with the keyboard stuff we
> want to let the plasma developers solve some of the issues since it can be
> quite tricky and they know the code and should review changes anyway.
>
>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain how on
>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try to do
>>> it.
>> ah, thats even a awsome idea! I will search for those an label as soon i
>> can turn on my home computer (i m currently still at work).
>> as i remember the window switcher/ workspace switcher doesn't talk as
>> IMO important parts of the desktop (but i also asume its not a typical
>> "missing lable" bug and will require a little more, not sure).
> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did attempt
> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good progress
> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>
> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost works, but for
> example misses some label, just to get started on something that will be
> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be a bit
> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build and work,
> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>
>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress
>>> reports.
>> ok so i will register a blog there? maybe something like an "team" blog?
>> maybe others wants to blog there as well?
>> maybe first thing we should blog should some initial instruction how to
>> make orca run on KDE (requirements, shortcuts, what you already did at
>> mailing list).
> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to get Orca
> working in general, that would be great!
>
> Cheers,
> Frederik
>
>> cheers chrys
>>
>> Am 11.10.18 um 16:53 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>>> Hi Chrys and everyone,
>>>
>>> I cut out parts of the mail to focus on what I think is relevant and try
>>> to
>>> answer inline below.
>>>
>>> On onsdag 10. oktober 2018 23.27.38 CEST chrys@linux-a11y.org wrote:
>>>> For me the major issues i see in QT/Plasma:
>>>> 1. bad keyboard navigation (ho to focus panel, embedded widgets, tray
>>>> whatever)
>>> This is something where the Plasma folks have been very helpful, I think
>>> once we talk to them now, they will be even more receptive to make
>>> improvements since this comes from users and not just me :)
>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the plasma
>>> mailing list as a first step.
>>>
>>>> 2. a lot of missing a11y names, labels roles
>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain how on
>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try to do
>>> it.>
>>>> 3. a11y Performance can be very bad here sometimes
>>> That will be harder to fix, but it's something I can look into, I think
>>> this requires filing issues on bugs.kde.org to track, with steps how to
>>> reproduce things. Some things may also be easiest to fix in Orca, let's
>>> see.>
>>>> 4. it also crashes a lot with screenreader enabled ( for sure orca deas
>>>> not
>>>> hanle everything here gracefully, orcas  QT scrips are not as good tested
>>>> as its GTK script)
>>> These I'm interested in, especially if you somehow manage to generate
>>> backtraces, so that the issues can be fixed in Qt and or KDE.
>>>
>>>> 5. my nasty ezoom issues lol
>>>>
>>>> I already read some stuff and found the widgets are mostly (all?) weitten
>>>> in qml.
>>>> i understood that quite good because no black magic here :).
>>>> Some useful links to me i want to share because they may help others too:
>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html
>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html
>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingStarte
>>>> d
>>>>
>>>> I currently play with that.
>>> Awesome! Please let me know when things are unclear, I can update the
>>> docs.
>>>
>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for planning.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used for code
>>>>> review.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>> Yea i already found that and see some stuff like  missing a11y labels or
>>>> keyboard nav here and there. So fits with my observations.
>>>>
>>>> But i see no way to register at this website to comment, create todos or
>>>> send patches? How is the wotkflow here?
>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>>>
>>> The same credentials should work for phabricator:
>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=%2F
>>>
>>> I hope all of that is accessible!
>>>
>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see what is
>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the things
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> don't work.
>>>> Yea. will do that. I wanted to take a look in kickers favorite/
>>>> bookmark keyboard nav first. Sounds not so complex as i m a beginner
>>>> in QT/ QML / Plasma world.
>>>>
>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more attention :)
>>>> Thats an realy cool idea! Is there already something like a KDE  a11y
>>>> blogging section or category ?
>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress
>>> reports.
>>>
>>>> It should indeed find more publicity in fact most huge issues for
>>>> blind guys are a oneliner by an good dev :/. So much issues can be
>>>> wiped out when devs know how to care about that. With the nice side
>>>> effect that automated testing works as well :). Even users need to
>>>> know that the situation improves. Thats why many impaired people dont
>>>> use or even try KDE. Because in there brain is still „nothing works
>>>> there for me“ and this is just wrong i think. A lot of great work
>>>> already happend at this sector already.
>>> Yes, we just need a bit more mind-share and pointing out the issues,
>>> people
>>> are very willing to help but often just a bit clueless. Let's assume good
>>> faith, I haven't met anyone in KDE who was opposed to making things more
>>> accessible.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Frederik
>>>
>>>> Cheers, greez from germany
>>>>
>>>> Chrys
>>>>
>>>> Zitat von Frederik Gladhorn <gladhorn@kde.org>:
>>>>> Hi Chrys,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll answer your mail inline, below.
>>>>>
>>>>> On torsdag 23. august 2018 10.16.15 CEST chrys@linux-a11y.org wrote:
>>>>>> Howdy list,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My name is chrys. I m a visual impaired guy from germany. I m new to
>>>>>> this list.
>>>>>> Since Gnome gets more and more crippled i decide to change to KDE/
>>>> Plasma.
>>>>
>>>>>> And it was one of best decisions I did. Plasma is awsome and i wont
>>>>>> miss it now (lol).
>>>>>> I use KWins zoom plugin.
>>>>> Great to hear that the zooming works :)
>>>>>
>>>>>> My girlfrind is blind. She currently switched to Mate for the same
>>>>>> reason like me. Mate is pretty accessible. But there are a lot of
>>>>>> stuff missing what we would suspect from an modern desktop (search in
>>>>>> menu and those stuff).
>>>>>> Plasma has all that. So i decide to try plasma using Orca.
>>>>>> My results: Its very slow, unstable and often hard to navigate. But it
>>>>>> worked at all! thats more that i was suspecting. What tells me that
>>>>>> the plasma shell already exposes the needed information to the at-spi
>>>>>> (cool).
>>>>>> Impressed by that results, I want start fixing up stuff for KDE/
>>>>>> Plasma/ QT a11y to make work for her (and ohters) one day.
>>>>>> So i read
>>>>>> https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility
>>>>>> what brings me to the point to say hello here in the list :).
>>>>> Wow, amazing! That means our efforts did pay off. This is really
>>>>> exciting
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> read. I hope we can quickly improve things.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sadly information is very rare in a11y stuff (not only for KDE). Thats
>>>>>> why i want to find others who maybe already have knowledge to Mentor
>>>>>> me or wants to work together with me to raise the motivation and fun
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :). on my way to get touched with that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So:
>>>>>> 1. Is there someone out there who wants to join my effort?
>>>>> Yes, I've been trying to get things working for a long while, but I
>>>> cannot do
>>>>
>>>>> this alone (neither time nor energy wise).
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Is there someone out there who can Mentor me a bit for my first
>>>> steps?
>>>>
>>>>> I'm happy to do that, sorry for the late reaction, I was generally busy
>>>>> lately.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Is there an effort what already exists what i can maybe join?
>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for planning.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used for code
>>>>> review.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see what is
>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the things
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> don't work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more attention :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Frederik
>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers chrys
>
>
>

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