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List:       debian-user
Subject:    Re: repeat of previous question that has gone unansweredseveraltimes.
From:       gene heskett <gheskett () shentel ! net>
Date:       2023-05-07 15:26:05
Message-ID: 1641f838-ae72-b47b-0f28-d3ad4d6671c6 () shentel ! net
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On 5/6/23 19:29, Alex King wrote:
> Printing on Linux is poor.  CUPS is poor.  It doesn't work for some (a 
> lot?) of people.
> 
> I have a Brother HL-L2300D printer.  It is connected to my (Debian 
> bullseye) workstation by USB.  I have CUPS installed.
> 
> My printer prints sometime.  Other times, it spins up (makes a noise 
> like it is about to start printing), but nothing comes out. I can't get 
> any useful diagnostics to tell me where the problem might be.
> 
There is a light at the end of this dark tunnel, IF you are willing to 
change the brand name on the printer. But in your case you've already 
done that.  So now do a search for brotherusa, go there and download 
their driver installer, unpack it, run it sudo if needed. It will ask 
you for the model # of your printer, enter it EXACTLY, the script will, 
if you've net access, goto brothers site, download the exact driver your 
printer needs, install it, integrating with cups perfectly but you will 
probably need to disable cups-browsed as it will make the default driver 
the everywhere driver, crippling 95% of the printers abilities.  And 
from the machine the printer is plugged into, and assuming browsed is 
stopped so you can use the brother driver, it Just Works.

However, if its to be shared, usable from other machines on your local 
home network AND your other machines are also running bullseye, and some 
of my arm stuff is, something is locking out the discovery of shares by 
cups, hence my constant harping about it here.  Other Buster machines 
Just Work but in my case and to emphasize the point, an rpi4b running 
buster works but no banana pi m2 running bullseye can find a printer for 
cups. But lpstat -t on that same bpi running bullseye sees them all.

I assume they can print, but thru an lp derivitive that means your Aunt 
Tilly has to remember the exact name and all the options that go with 
it. And Aunt Tilly will be back on windows next week.  She, like I, just 
wants HER printer to work.

> My parents, who live some distance away have an HP inkjet printer.  It 
> works sometimes.  Other times it doesn't.  I get it set up so it's 
> working and it might work for a while, but it will stop working for no 
> reason.  There might be several queues for the printer; some work and 
> some just don't.  A working queue will stop working for no discernible 
> reason.  Working queues will disappear, new queues will appear seemingly 
> at random.  The print system will default to an automatically provided 
> queue that could never work, because it relies on some software 
> component that is not installed.... etc... etc...
> 
> Between my parents and my own system, I have spent 10s or 100s of hours 
> trying to get a reliable printing system over decades, with many 
> different printers.  Maybe there were periods where printing worked OK. 
> But I haven't managed to achieve reliable printing in the medium term.
> 
> I read ESR https://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html, and my 
> personal experience is that nothing much has changed in the "driverless" 
> era.

To me, its been a wholesale slauterhouse since cups was sold to Apple.
The only fix I can see will require that we as a world wide group, 
decide to monetarily support a cups like fork, getting away from the if 
it doesn't suit Apple, it doesn't happen, influence.  TANSTAAFL folks. 
If you think the peanuts are free, its time to look at the price of the 
beer.  Coders like to eat, good ones should be able to afford a longer 
ladder up the side of the hog... I can easily afford a $25/anum fee.
What say you?

> I've been a sysadmin for 30 odd years, configuring different aspects of 
> linux (webservers, email servers, DNS, networking, desktop environments 
> etc.) using open source software.  Some problems are difficult to solve, 
> but I've always found that having a good basic understanding, checking 
> logs, using tools to confirm what is happening, and doing research on 
> how things work, allows me to solve those problems eventually.

And I've been roping electrons into doing useful work for about 75 years.

> Not so with CUPS and printing.  I have tried many different approaches 
> (e.g. * reinstall from scratch, accept the default packages and default 
> options.  * go to the linux printing site and follow the recommended 
> method for my model of printer * try to understand how CUPS works, set 
> up as statically and simply as possible, and use standard tools to 
> troubleshoot printing failures.)  I have not succeeded with any approach.

ditto.

> 
> It could be that I have struck certain models of printer with bugs. 
> Hardware and firmware bugs exist, and not just in printers.  However, I 
> don't find hardware or firmware bugs cause me significant pain as there 
> are normally software or configuration based work-arounds/allowances for 
> them in Debian. Except for printers.  These same printer models work 
> much more reliably in MacOS and Windows.
> 
> Back in the lpr/lpd days things were more reliable.
> 
They apparently still are, for those with the memory for cli.

> Is there a deeper problem affecting printing on linux?  I asked work 
> colleagues and got two responses:
> 
> "oh, shit.  you’re actually printing from linux.  my condolences.', and
> 
> "I use Epson and Ubuntu, never had an issue with print over IP - so I 
> can attest to drivers working from that perspective atleast"
> 
> My perspective is that there is a significant issue, at least for a 
> portion of users.
> 
> Implying the user is at fault (which Brian isn't necessarily doing 
> here,) or acting surprised when someone has trouble printing, is like 
> gaslighting.  Maybe it works OK for you, but please understand that is 
> not the general case.  Debian can't support every printer for every 
> user, but knowing that, CUPS should come with a health warning:  "We 
> supply this software as-is in the knowledge that it has known faults, 
> and will not work reliably for all users.  We wish there were a way that 
> Debian users could reliably print, but there is not.  You may get some 
> help on Debian User, but in general printing is not supported."
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex
> 
> On 6/05/23 05:45, Brian wrote:
>> Your conclusion is that the printing system is in itself is defective 
>> and that is
>> reflected in your response.

No adverse reflection on Brian, he has been very helpful indeed in 
isolating my problems to a broken cups. But neither of us has yet found 
whats actually broken.

Take care & stay well everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>

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