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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Drag and Drop Up-One-Level
From:       "Jamethiel Knorth" <jamethknorth () hotmail ! com>
Date:       2004-05-06 15:21:26
Message-ID: BAY7-F102hjJ8uT6Ssu000060cd () hotmail ! com
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>From: Florian Graessle <flograessle@uni.de>
>Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:35:29 +0200
>
>On Wed, 05 May 2004 16:59:00 -0400
>"Jamethiel Knorth" <jamethknorth@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Okay, I've read that original comment many times, and I do not even 
>slightly
> > see how it is right. It makes no sense. Why would we not implement being
> > able drop a file up one level because that only add dropping up one 
>level?
> > It adds dropping up one level, which currently isn't there. What is 
>wrong
> > with this? The Up arrow represents the directory that is up one level, 
>so
> > you can drop to it.
>
>In my opinion managing a filesystem should be kept as simple and consitent 
>as
>possible.

Right now, it is inconsistent. Drag-and-drop is inconsistent and should be 
cleaned up. See the other thread.

>- Dragging&Dropping (d&d) "Up" is a somewhat oneway direction only. The 
>path
>leads up. There's no chance to reach different subfolders in the upper 
>folders.
>That's bad, because maybe there's a better location to drop the file/folder 
>into

Drag-and-Drop is the most straight-forward method of organizing files. 
Currently, you can easily use it to move a file anywhere, except that you 
need to be using the sidebar and have it in its standard location to move 
something upwards. If you don't use the sidebar, your only option is to cut 
and paste or use the move/copy to options. Thus, Drag-and-Drop going upwards 
in the filesystem only works when using the sidebar.

To reach other subfolders, the user can go upwards if they need to.

And, just because there may be better locations to drop the file/folder does 
not mean it should be difficult to drop it there, as that may be the better 
location at other times.

>- the way users are navigating through folders isn't determined at all. So 
>the
>final outcome of copying/moving files using the "up" button may be 
>different
>from the way the user "normally" organizes files.

Where Up is never changes. All KDE systems are hierarchal filesystems. There 
is always a directory Up one level (unless you are at the root, in which 
case that button will be disabled and an invalid target). If the user does 
not 'normally' organize their files in a way that needs to go up a level, 
they just won't go up a level. But, if they do, there isn't a reason to make 
it so difficult.

>- Do we, no - does the average user really need yet another (though 
>restricted)
>way to konquer his files/folders? Yet another decision to make: "Is it
>faster/better for me to use the toolbar d&d way or the normal way? Am I in 
>the
>situation to use the toolbar way? I went up several levels, I changed my
>mind and want to put the file into a "side folder" there. What am I 
>supposed to
>do now?" Bear in mind: Often less is more.

This is not more, it is universalization of something which is already 
there. You can drag and drop files to locations. I want the system to 
support dragging to targets which represent locations. Right now, you can't 
just drag a file 'up'. If you have the tree-view open, you can drag it to a 
location on the tree-view.

> > What is wrong with allowing someone to drop a file in an  icon which
> > represents their home directory? Seriously, what's wrong with it?
>
>I didn't say anything about d&d to Home not being right - in the contrary I 
>do
>think it is the only adequat toolbar target for d&d. Yet it may become
>irritating and confusing to link (this is an option available in the
>present d&d pop-up window) a folder to home. Does it mean to make a link 
>within
>the home folder or does it mean linking the toolbar button "Home" to the 
>dragged
>folder - as it used to be with urls in some popular internet browsers? This 
>is
>predestined for misinterpration.

Well, if it is that ripe for misinterpretation, the link option could be 
removed. Or, it could be kept. That's a slightly different issue which can 
be decided.

If buttons in the toolbar are being added as drop-targets, the buttons which 
represent locations should be targets. Bookmarks, Up, Back, Forward, Home, 
possibly others. Again, see the other thread.

>I think implementing a d&d to the toolbar option does more harm to the 
>average
>users than it might be good for powerusers who shouldn't be the main target
>when talking about usabilty.

You are making the assumption that the current system is good for average 
users. What the current system does not allow is for a user to always only 
use one browsing method. Unless they always have the sidebar present and in 
the right mode, users cannot do all of their file management with 
drag-and-drop, which is the most intuitive type of file management.

I know average users who do not use the sidebar. It is not rare that people 
dislike it, especially when they have a smaller screen, which manner users 
do have. In the current system, they need to use cutting and pasting. Anyone 
using the more spacial browsing method needs to as well.

However, if people could drag files to any target which reliably represents 
a location, they would be able to do all their file management with only one 
file management method. At the moment, drag-and-drop is under-used and 
commonly misdesigned. As it is a very straightforward way to do things, it 
should be properly organized.



Also, although power users should not be the main target for usability, they 
are a valid target. Usability is about making a system easy to use and easy 
to learn. Not only easy to learn, but both. Ease of use matters to power 
users, and power users are a significant portion of the KDE user base.

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