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List: kde-devel
Subject: Re: The no goto religion
From: "Jos Poortvliet" <jos () mijnkamer ! nl>
Date: 2007-08-05 10:54:14
Message-ID: 5c77e14b0708050354y738ef639pce1003630db00c39 () mail ! gmail ! com
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On 8/5/07, James Richard Tyrer <tyrerj@acm.org> wrote:
>
> Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> > On 8/5/07, *James Richard Tyrer* <tyrerj@acm.org
> > <mailto:tyrerj@acm.org>> wrote:
> >
> > I think that if you read all of the thread you will see that the "no
> > goto" dogma is still alive and well.
>
> > You do?
>
> Yes, I think that. Otherwise, I wouldn't have said it. :-)
>
> > Let me quote just a few people from this thread.
> <SNIP>
> I could do the same to prove my point, but I won't bother.
Sure, it wasn't entirely fair...
Please note
> that the proposition isn't the kind that is disproved by counter
> examples. If one person posted that he was taught never to use a goto,
> and someone did, then my proposition is true. And, obviously, the
> person that wrote the code in question was also an example.
> >
> <SNIP>
> >> btw, this is my last reply in this thread. i've wasted enough time
> >> on this.
>
> And if only everyone else has taken AJS's advice. :-) Even he didn't.
>
> > And that makes sense:
>
> >> Code is really a matter of personal taste,
>
> Actually, that isn't true. If Software Engineering is really
> engineering then it can't be a matter of personal taste.
>
> Designing a bridge (engineering) cannot be a matter of personal taste.
> Even I, an electronic engineer, was taught enough ME to know what was
> wrong with that bridge. And, yes, software has killed people.
>
> > To be honest, the whole point of this discussion seems to be:
> >
> >> Well try to take a positive attitude towards flame wars. I don't
> >> take them seriously and, therefore, tend to find them entertaining.
> >> :-D
>
> > And you certainly must know who said that.
> >
> You are taking a factitious remark out of context.
On one hand, yes. On the other hand, it's not un-true, isn't it? (how to say
that in english...)
> The problem is, many people DON'T like flame wars.
>
> Then they shouldn't participate in them. :-)
a problem with flamewars is that it's pretty hard to stay out, because they
are inflamatoiry - you feel an urge to respond, even though it's not
usefull.
> And it seems we are wasting our time entertaining you.
>
> People have free will. I am not forcing anyone to post to this thread.
See above.
> You might think you're doing a good thing - and maybe, on some level,
> > the first few emails did show some people GOTO's aren't that evil.
>
> When I posted this, I intended to have a serious discussion. As I am
> sure you can understand, it takes other people to have a serious
> discussion.
Sure, I don't/didn't object to bringing it up.
> But I think that purpose is long gone, and we're just entertainment
> > now. While many have better things to do.
>
> Yes, you are correct that this thread should have ended some time ago.
Great we agree on this ;-)
It has not really become a flame war but it, or at least parts of it,
> has degenerated into something less than a useful technical discussion
> (some of it looks like a pissing contest).
Indeed.
IIRC, you are the
> psychologist. Perhaps you can tell us all why that happens?
Well, one problem is that we discuss this with email. Due to it's low
bandwith, nuances fall away, and people respond to what they don't agree
with, leaving the agreefull nodding to the imagination. (sorry for my
english but the point is clear, isn't it?). This leads to the standpoints
becoming more extreme. Of course that fuels the fire. What I tried to make
clear (though poorly) was that actually your standpoint and that of most
people you're discussing with are very close to each other, it's just
hard(er) to see due to above factors.
So, I will do as you suggest and not reply to any more comments. If
> someone actually wants to continue a technical discussion, they can
> start a new thread.
I applaud that and appreciate it.
--
> JRT
Good day,
Jos Poortvliet
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
On 8/5/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">James Richard Tyrer</b> <<a \
href="mailto:tyrerj@acm.org">tyrerj@acm.org</a>> wrote:<div><span \
class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px \
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Jos \
Poortvliet wrote:<br>> On 8/5/07, *James Richard Tyrer* <<a \
href="mailto:tyrerj@acm.org">tyrerj@acm.org</a><br>> <mailto:<a \
href="mailto:tyrerj@acm.org">tyrerj@acm.org</a>>> wrote:<br>><br>> I \
think that if you read all of the thread you will see that the "no \
<br>> goto" dogma is still alive and well.<br><br>> You \
do?<br><br>Yes, I think that. Otherwise, I wouldn't have said it. \
:-)<br><br>> Let me quote just a few people from this thread.<br><SNIP><br> \
I could do the same to prove my point, but I won't \
bother.</blockquote><div><br>Sure, it wasn't entirely fair... \
<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, \
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Please \
note<br>that the proposition isn't the kind that is disproved by \
counter<br>examples. If one person posted that he was taught never to use \
a goto,<br>and someone did, then my proposition is true. And, obviously, \
the <br>person that wrote the code in question was also an \
example.<br>><br><SNIP><br>>> btw, this is my last reply in this \
thread. i've wasted enough time<br>>> on this.<br><br>And if only everyone \
else has taken AJS's advice. :-) Even he didn't. <br><br>> And that makes \
sense:<br><br>>> Code is really a matter of personal taste,<br><br>Actually, \
that isn't true. If Software Engineering is really<br>engineering then \
it can't be a matter of personal taste. <br><br>Designing a bridge (engineering) \
cannot be a matter of personal taste.<br>Even I, an electronic engineer, was taught \
enough ME to know what was<br>wrong with that bridge. And, yes, software \
has killed people.<br> <br>> To be honest, the whole point of this discussion \
seems to be:<br>><br>>> Well try to take a positive attitude towards flame \
wars. I don't<br>>> take them seriously and, therefore, tend to \
find them entertaining. <br>>> :-D<br><br>> And you certainly \
must know who said that.<br>><br>You are taking a factitious remark out of \
context.</blockquote><div><br>On one hand, yes. On the other hand, it's not \
un-true, isn't it? (how to say that in english...) <br></div><br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt \
0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">> The problem is, many people DON'T like flame \
wars.<br><br>Then they shouldn't participate in them. :-) </blockquote><div><br>a \
problem with flamewars is that it's pretty hard to stay out, because they are \
inflamatoiry - you feel an urge to respond, even though it's not \
usefull.<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid \
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> > And it seems \
we are wasting our time entertaining you.<br><br>People have free will. I \
am not forcing anyone to post to this thread.</blockquote><div><br>See above. \
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, \
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> > You might think \
you're doing a good thing - and maybe, on some level,<br>> the first few \
emails did show some people GOTO's aren't that evil.<br><br>When I posted \
this, I intended to have a serious discussion. As I am <br>sure you can \
understand, it takes other people to have a serious \
discussion.</blockquote><div><br>Sure, I don't/didn't object to bringing it \
up.<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid \
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> > But I think \
that purpose is long gone, and we're just entertainment<br>> now. While many \
have better things to do.<br><br>Yes, you are correct that this thread should have \
ended some time ago.</blockquote><div> <br>Great we agree on this ;-) \
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, \
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">It has not really become a \
flame war but it, or at least parts of it, <br>has degenerated into something less \
than a useful technical discussion<br>(some of it looks like a pissing \
contest).</blockquote><div><br>Indeed. <br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; \
padding-left: 1ex;"> IIRC, you are \
the<br>psychologist. Perhaps you can tell us all why that \
happens?</blockquote><div><br>Well, one problem is that we discuss this with email. \
Due to it's low bandwith, nuances fall away, and people respond to what they \
don't agree with, leaving the agreefull nodding to the imagination. (sorry for my \
english but the point is clear, isn't it?). This leads to the standpoints \
becoming more extreme. Of course that fuels the fire. What I tried to make clear \
(though poorly) was that actually your standpoint and that of most people you're \
discussing with are very close to each other, it's just hard(er) to see due to \
above factors. <br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px \
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">So, I will \
do as you suggest and not reply to any more comments. If<br>someone \
actually wants to continue a technical discussion, they can <br>start a new \
thread.</blockquote><div><br>I applaud that and appreciate \
it.<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid \
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
--<br>JRT</blockquote><div><br>Good day,<br><br>Jos Poortvliet <br></div></div>
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