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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Not OT
From:       Marko Samastur <markos () elite ! org>
Date:       2001-09-15 9:56:29
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Hi,

I won't try to refute every possible point, because...well, it would 
just lead to bickering around small things that don't add to big 
picture.

Beside much of what you say is true.

Dne sobota 15 september 2001 09:42 je Eric Laffoon napisal(a):
>
> start any of the world wars. History shows the US was the protector
> of the innocent and downtrodden and the gaurantor of freedom. In fact

Well, yes, if you limit that to view on world wars.

> not consider color... so I can say honestly that many blacks sold
> into slavery were sold by their tribal enemies. That is to say blacks

Yes, but not ALL of them were. In fact majority were made slaves by 
whites. Just because others have sinned it doesn't mean our sin is any 
lesser (our meaning white people).

> view of real people. Today black Americans do not live in a perfect
> world... but they have a substantially better standard of living and
> life expectancy than their brothers in Africa, for whom my heart
> breaks. The vast majority of black Americans are middle class which

And again, white people (mainly europeans) are responsible for much of 
that misery.

> Here in America the native peoples (they are not indians) have
> suffered greatly and lost their way of life. You can ponder it in the
> casinos they own if you visit and they gladly take your money. One
> cannot hope to really make sense of it all or draw absolute moral
> distinctions. What I can say in defense of the indefensible is this.
> For a conquered people they have done very well. They have land, have
> received money and have rights to fish and wild life and commerce
> that others of us do not. I would not call it fair... I would say it

Now this I find disgusting. After many were killed (possibly millions 
by recent studies) they should be grateful you let them keep some land 
when before the limits were oceans? They should be grateful that in 
some way they are limited less than other living in USA when before the 
limits were chosen by themselves?

A golden cage is still just a cage.

> America has long believed in peace through strength. For all our
> might I challenge you to name a war we initiated. I believe people

Well, I've visited Canada's war museum again this year. It seems they 
had to defend themselves from you few times in 19th century. I also 
think native Americans didn't just wake up one day after centuries 
since they were first visited by Europeans and decided they don't like 
them. War is not necessarily started by first gunshot.

But yours and mine arguments are beside a point and don't really prove 
anything. 

> If history is any indicator Americans will put it out. We wish no
> innocents to die but in war it is inevitable. One should consider

Yes and thousands of innocent have died in last decade either directly 
by american bombs or indirectly by other actions. And this is part of 
the reason why so many dislike you.

Of course USA is not only one to be blamed since Europe played a great 
part in all of this as well.

The question for me is how is this any better? Just because you declare 
it's war you somehow gain right to kill innocent? IMHO it's still 
simply wrong like this latest attack was.

> this before declaring war. Again, Bin Laden declared war on America
> formally several years ago and clearly what happened on Tuesday was
> an act of war. It would be hard for me to conceive that a US action

No, it wasn't. It was just a terrorism on a bigger scale than before. 
Individual or basically fairly small group of people can't declare war, 
only a country can. This is why we name such actions terrorism.

Calling it a war is just a poor excuse to try to make unjustifiable 
actions justifiable.

It's interesting that this for you is war but when USA bombards a whole 
country (like Serbia for a recent example), it's just a police action. 

> of state Colin Powell you will hear what Americans think. President
> Bush enjoys greater than 90% job approval right now.

Yes, this is what frightens many of us.

> econonomic strata to move into the 21st century. That is my hope. I
> do not wish the death of anyone, but I see that it will nonetheless
> be required in order to do what is right for the security of free
> people aound the world. There are always things that have to be done

I politely disagree. I've seen war and it never solves anything. It 
only makes things worse.

If it wasn't clear from my message, I think no killing can be 
justified. Attack on WTC and Pentagon is a crime, but people 
responsible should be brought to court in Hague and punished 
accordingly to their actions.

I'm really sorry for all the people who got hurt in latest attack and 
by that of course I don't mean only those who lost their lives.

I also respect you and your views, I just disagree with many of them.

Regards,

	Marko
 
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