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List: yaffs
Subject: Re: [Yaffs] New to the mailing list. Have issues with bad flash reads
From: "de Brebisson, Cyrille (Calculator Division)" <cyrille () hp ! com>
Date: 2018-02-22 6:36:52
Message-ID: TU4PR8401MB09108A7663433743934AD3C7C9CD0 () TU4PR8401MB0910 ! NAMPRD84 ! PROD ! OUTLOOK ! COM
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Hello,
Thank you for the info on yaffs's handling of bad read. I understand what you mean \
here.
About the bad flash drivers.
* One area where people often make mistakes is in waiting until the data is \
properly ready before reading. I do not think that this is the issue as we are using \
a nand flash signal pin to know when data is ready to read
* Also, make sure the flash memory power supplies are good and low ripple.
This sounds like a much more likely root cause in our case. I will investigate. \
Thanks for the pointer
Thanks for the info.
Have a good day.
Cyrille
De : Charles Manning [mailto:cdhmanning@gmail.com]
Envoyé : Wednesday, February 21, 2018 10:37 PM
À : de Brebisson, Cyrille (Calculator Division) <cyrille@hp.com>
Cc : yaffs@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
Objet : Re: [Yaffs] New to the mailing list. Have issues with bad flash reads
Hello
You really have two independent, but related issues going on here...
On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 4:45 AM, de Brebisson, Cyrille (Calculator Division) \
<cyrille@hp.com<mailto:cyrille@hp.com>> wrote: Hello,
I am responsible for implementing yaffs in a small, bare meta OS system with a 512MB, \
2K pages, 64 pages block NAND Flash.
Our Flash rom subsystem is sometimes failing reads. This is happing on blocks that \
are supposed to be good and contains file data! Furthermore, later reads to the same \
page might succeed (after a system reboot).
Of course, this is wrecking havoc on our system's reliability.
So, a couple of questions:
* have you ever seen that in your experience?
Bad flash drivers are quite common. One area where people often make mistakes is in \
waiting until the data is properly ready before reading. Also, make sure the flash \
memory power supplies are good and low ripple. Remember that cells (and NAND flash \
cells in particular) are really analogue elements and too much ripple on the power \
rails can cause problems.
*
* when this happen, I make sure that the flash driver to yaffs interface returns \
a YAFFS_FAIL, however, yaffs does seem to still return data to the user that called \
the file read, incorrectly returning known bad bytes at this point. Is this normal? \
Yes, there is an issue here. Yaffs can choose to either say there is an IO error \
(EIO) or it can try to give back as much data as it can. Yaffs chooses the latter \
approach. I have some changes underway to allow Yaffs to return EIO instead.
*
* After such a bad read, yaffs does not seem to do anything on the block like \
mark it as bad or something like this. Is it intended? It should be marked for future \
cleanup.
*
I am working with a checkout of yaffs which is around 6 month old (taken in june \
2017) in a bare metal setup.
I doubt there are significant changes in the last 6 months to impact this issue.
The major thing to do is find out why the flash reads are failing so badly.
Regards
Charles
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for the info on yaffs's handling of bad read. I \
understand what you mean here.<o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">About the bad flash \
drivers. <o:p></o:p></p> <ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo5">One area \
where people often make mistakes is in waiting until the data is properly ready \
before reading.<o:p></o:p></li></ul> <p class="MsoNormal">I do not think that this is \
the issue as we are using a nand flash signal pin to know when data is ready to \
read<o:p></o:p></p> <ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo5">Also, \
make sure the flash memory power supplies are good and low \
ripple.<o:p></o:p></li></ul> <p class="MsoNormal">This sounds like a much more likely \
root cause in our case. I will investigate. Thanks for the pointer<o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the \
info.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Have a good day.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cyrille<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>De :</b> Charles Manning [mailto:cdhmanning@gmail.com] \
<br> <b>Envoyé :</b> Wednesday, February 21, 2018 10:37 PM<br>
<b>À </b><b><span lang="FR">:</span></b><span lang="FR"> de Brebisson, Cyrille \
(Calculator Division) <cyrille@hp.com><br> <b>Cc :</b> \
yaffs@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk<br> <b>Objet :</b> Re: [Yaffs] New to the mailing \
list. Have issues with bad flash reads<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hello<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You really have two independent, but related issues going on \
here...<o:p></o:p></p> <div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 4:45 AM, de Brebisson, Cyrille \
(Calculator Division) <<a href="mailto:cyrille@hp.com" \
target="_blank">cyrille@hp.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> <blockquote \
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hello,<o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext">I am responsible for implementing yaffs \
in a small, bare meta OS system with a 512MB, 2K pages, 64 pages block NAND \
Flash.<o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext">Our Flash rom subsystem is sometimes failing \
reads. This is happing on blocks that are supposed to be good and contains file data! \
Furthermore, later reads to the same page might succeed (after a system \
reboot).<o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext">Of course, this is wrecking havoc on our \
system's reliability.<o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext">So, a couple of questions:<o:p></o:p></p> \
<ul type="disc"> <li class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1"> \
have you ever seen that in your experience?<o:p></o:p></li></ul> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bad flash drivers are quite common. One area where people often \
make mistakes is in waiting until the data is properly ready before \
reading.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also, make sure the flash memory power supplies are good and low \
ripple. Remember that cells (and NAND flash cells in particular) are really \
analogue elements and too much ripple on the power rails can cause \
problems.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"> \
<o:p> </o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"> \
when this happen, I make sure that the flash driver to yaffs interface returns a \
YAFFS_FAIL, however, yaffs does seem to still return data to the user that called the \
file read, incorrectly returning known bad bytes at this point. Is this \
normal?<o:p></o:p></li></ul> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, there is an issue here. Yaffs can choose to either say \
there is an IO error (EIO) or it can try to give back as much data as it can. Yaffs \
chooses the latter approach.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have some changes underway to allow Yaffs to return EIO \
instead.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"> \
<o:p> </o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"> \
After such a bad read, yaffs does not seem to do anything on the block like mark it \
as bad or something like this. Is it intended?<o:p></o:p></li></ul> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It should be marked for future cleanup. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" \
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo4"> \
<o:p> </o:p></li></ul> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext"> <o:p></o:p></p> <p \
class="m7783883376477606819msoplaintext">I am working with a checkout of yaffs which \
is around 6 month old (taken in june 2017) in a bare metal setup.<o:p></o:p></p> \
</div> </div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I doubt there are significant \
changes in the last 6 months to impact this issue.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The major thing to do is find out \
why the flash reads are failing so badly.<o:p></o:p></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Charles <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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