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List:       xml-dev
Subject:    Re: [xml-dev] Is XML a language or a data format?
From:       Shlomi Fish <shlomif () shlomifish ! org>
Date:       2022-07-17 1:40:31
Message-ID: 20220717044031.1097a23d () shlomifish ! org
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 08:33:01 +0100
Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps, guardians of XML are guardians of civilisation.
> 
> As nuclear war peril looms, maybe we should print data and knowledge

offtopic, but I'm not worried:

*
https://github.com/shlomif/shlomif-tech-diary/blob/master/hydrogen-bombs-are-likely-an-old-intelligence-hoax.asciidoc


*
https://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/culture/multiverse-cosmology/#history-lesson-about-the-muppeteers


> considered essential to future generations of civilisation, such as
> calendars and basic maths, onto sheets of plastic, perhaps by stencil holes
> rather than perishable ink, and do so worldwide now in case of nuclear war.
> Making use of the persistent nature of plastic. Before the world loses the
> ability to read binary, make and use electricity and fossil fuels, etc.
> 
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 at 08:02, Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Incidentally a plausible corollary of this is that civilisation might
> > collapse if both data and prose formats evolve into something which cannot
> > be persisted between generations.
> > 
> > On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 at 07:22, Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > I am sure there are ample books devoted to good coverage of this. I
> > > think of Document Engineering by R Glushko and T McGrath as one which
> > > has this covered in a relevant XML-related context.
> > > Data is compressed prose.
> > > I could think of an example of a small UK charity publishing a record
> > > of its Annual General Meeting in which it first publishes minutes of
> > > the meeting, followed by a table of its annual accounts summary, which
> > > can be seen as tabulated data. This data could instead have been
> > > written as prose "In the first month of the year, January, we spent
> > > £200 on office stationery. In the second month ..." but that would be
> > > tedious to write and tedious to read. The table format circumvents the
> > > tedium.
> > > 
> > > The tabulation of data historically preceded prose in Sumerian times
> > > around 3500 BC in Uruk where accounts of donations to the temple were
> > > recorded with symbols impressed into stone or clay tablets in a table
> > > format, and understood by convention. Only around 3000 did prose
> > > sentence construction appear to us in the archaeological record of Tel
> > > Fara and surrounding towns around 2800 BC, the Fara Period, at which
> > > point poetry as well as prose started to be written with symbols on
> > > clay and stone tablets. (Examples: Instruction of Sharappak, and the
> > > Temple Hymn of Kesh.) So historically the tabulated data idea is very
> > > ancient and very well understood and underpins civilisation through
> > > all of history in many parts of the world. It allows the recording of
> > > financial accounts, for example, and documentation of individual
> > > payments. Yet prose is an alternative which is almost as ancient and
> > > allows expression of ideas and recording of human sentences, such as
> > > the minutes of a meeting. The two have coexisted side-by-side
> > > throughout human civilization in most 'advanced' cultures. Arguably
> > > the existence of these two forms of writing has brought about
> > > civilisation by allowing the persistence of knowledge between
> > > generations.
> > > 
> > > That is my take
> > > Regards
> > > Stephen Green
> > > ----
> > > Stephen D Green
> > > 
> > > On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 at 00:59, Roger L Costello <costello@mitre.org>
> > > wrote:  
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Folks,
> > > > 
> > > > I passed along the two Michael's comments to the colleague who asserted  
> > > that data formats don't have grammars. Below is his response. Do you agree
> > > with his response?  /Roger  
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > > > So I offer....
> > > > 
> > > > "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In  
> > > practice, there is." -Yogi Berra  
> > > > 
> > > > First, to clarify, when I said a data format "doesn't have" a grammar,  
> > > I did not mean that literally like in formal computer science (CS) terms.  
> > > > 
> > > > I meant it figuratively. The term "grammar" in the CS sense, is just  
> > > not relevant. It lives alongside "spelling" and "algebra" as things one had
> > > to learn once (high school?), but these terms aren't used nor needed with
> > > reference to practical work with data.  
> > > > 
> > > > Rather, we data people use terms like structure, struct, record, and  
> > > layout. And of course "format".  
> > > > 
> > > > Are these just synonyms for "grammar"? I claim no. They denote things  
> > > that are simpler. E.g., one big difference is no recursion. Are these terms
> > > just "simplified grammars" in the CS sense? Yes. But the words used are my
> > > point here.  
> > > > 
> > > > Case in point: There is a military data spec document that is 5000  
> > > pages long and a large fraction of those pages describe the format of each
> > > of its messages.  
> > > > The term "grammar" does not appear anywhere in that 5000 page document.
> > > > It is big, but it's 'just' a data format.
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > > > My colleague went on to say that if you remove XML's recursion  
> > > capability, then it may be used as a data format; otherwise, it is a
> > > language.  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > --
> > ----
> > Stephen D Green
> > 



-- 

Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
The Human Hacking Field Guide - https://shlom.in/hhfg

Artificial Intelligence is not an adequate substitute for natural stupidity.
    — https://www.quotationspage.com/quote/239.html

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply .

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