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List: xml-dev
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: The limits of XML mean the limits of my data world
From: "Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex" <gerrit.imsieke () le-tex ! de>
Date: 2022-05-31 10:04:22
Message-ID: 508f620a-a5d0-26e2-6639-58e430b70c37 () le-tex ! de
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The overlap of music enthusiasts and the XML enthusiasts seems to be
significant!
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On 31.05.2022 11:36, Christophe Marchand wrote:
> I practise music in a baroque group, and we all use MusicXML to exchange
> scores.
>
> Professional musicians use Finale (a commercial product), but simple
> amateurs use MuseScore, which is open source.
>
> But yes, XML allows to extend the limit to my music world !
>
> Best regards,
> Christophe
>
> Le 30/05/2022 à 21:04, Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex a écrit :
>> A friend of mine, a pianist, arranger and composer who also teaches
>> music at Leipzig's academy of music and theater, writes his
>> compositions in Finale [1] and exchanges them with other people as
>> MusicXML. MusicXML supports overlapping staff groups, as can be seen
>> in example 41f-StaffGroups-Overlapping.xml on [2]. MusicXML's slurs
>> are "composed" of milestone elements, as can be seen in [3], adopting
>> a popular method to represent overlap in XML.
>>
>> I don't have statistics about how many contemporary composers write
>> music conventionally on sheets or electronically with Finale etc., but
>> I guess that most of them use software nowadays. And this software
>> more likely than not has XML as an exchange or even as a native
>> storage format. And that XML interchange format is able to represent
>> overlap.
>>
>> Gerrit
>>
>> [1] https://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale/
>> [2]
>> https://web.mit.edu/music21/doc/developerReference/musicxmlTest.html#multiple-parts-staves
>>
>> [3]
>> https://www.w3.org/2021/06/musicxml40/musicxml-reference/examples/slur-element/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30.05.2022 20:29, Dimitre Novatchev wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 11:13 PM Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex
>>> <gerrit.imsieke@le-tex.de <mailto:gerrit.imsieke@le-tex.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> You can express or represent (I regard both terms as synonymous
>>> wrt the
>>> current discussion) such an overlap in XML, see for example how the
>>> Common Music Notation handles overlap in beams or slurs (search for
>>> "overlap" on [1]). It's just that you cannot express it using
>>> overlapping elements.
>>>
>>> [1] https://music-encoding.org/guidelines/v4/content/cmn.html
>>> <https://music-encoding.org/guidelines/v4/content/cmn.html>
>>>
>>>
>>> The fact is that no conductor in the world is using CMN, do they? :)
>>>
>>> Just the "old-fashioned", non-xml-based musical scores ...
>>>
>>> If "XML is one's language" and they have to conduct an orchestra,
>>> what are the chances they will use CMN and not the "old-fashioned",
>>> non-xml-based musical scores ?
>>> Does even a single such example exist?
>>>
>>> Luckily, no one has ever tried to represent a Venn diagram with XML...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat
>>> everything as if it were a nail"
>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument>)
>>>
>>> To quote from this source:
>>>
>>> The notion of a /golden hammer,/ "a familiar technology or concept
>>> applied obsessively to many software problems", was introduced into
>>> information technology
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_technology> literature in
>>> 1998 as an anti-pattern <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern>:
>>> a programming practice to be avoided.
>>>
>>> Software developer José M. Gilgado has written that the law is still
>>> relevant in the 21st century and is highly applicable to software
>>> development. Many times software developers, he observed, "tend to
>>> use the same known tools to do a completely new different project
>>> with new constraints". He blamed this on "the comfort zone
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_zone> state where you don't
>>> change anything to avoid risk. The problem with using the same tools
>>> every time you can is that you don't have enough arguments to make a
>>> choice because you have nothing to compare to and is limiting your
>>> knowledge." The solution is "to keep looking for the best possible
>>> choice, even if we aren't very familiar with it".
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dimitre
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30.05.2022 05:55, Dimitre Novatchev wrote:
>>> > > > XML may not be good at representing concurrency (overlap
>>> just on
>>> > one-dimension -- time).
>>> > >
>>> > > Is this an example of concurrency?
>>> >
>>> > Concurrency is any overlap on the time axis.
>>> >
>>> > A good example is the scores used by the director of an
>>> orchestra.
>>> > Because of the concurrency of playing of the different groups of
>>> musical
>>> > instruments within an orchestra, their scores are printed not
>>> in one
>>> > continuous linear line, but on many parallel horizontal lines one
>>> below
>>> > the other as the musical durations of non-paused play of these
>>> different
>>> > instrumental groups overlap horizontally, where the
>>> horizontal axis from
>>> > left to write expresses the time.
>>> >
>>> > Say you have a violin and a clarinet. The violin plays a single
>>> tone in
>>> > the interval [t1, t2] and the clarinet plays another tone in the
>>> > interval [t3, t4]. And t1 < t3 < t2 < t4 or t3 < t1 < t4
>>> < t2.
>>> >
>>> > With XML one cannot represent such partial overlaps, but overlaps
>>> where
>>> > one of the durations completely contains the other (which is not
>>> > generally the rule in music), can be represented by two elements,
>>> the
>>> > second of which is contained in the scope of the first: t1 <= t3
>>> < t4 <=
>>> > t2 or t3 <= t1 < t2 <=t4
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 12:08 PM Roger L Costello
>>> <costello@mitre.org <mailto:costello@mitre.org>
>>> > <mailto:costello@mitre.org <mailto:costello@mitre.org>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Peter wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > overlap can be expressed but not represented
>>> >
>>> > I am not clear what you mean by "overlap". Is this an
>>> example of
>>> > overlap:
>>> >
>>> > Classroom1 is used for teaching math, science, and writing.
>>> > Classroom2 is used for teaching art, history, and writing.
>>> >
>>> > There is overlap between the topics taught in classroom1 and
>>> > classroom2 -- writing. Is that what you mean by "overlap"?
>>> >
>>> > If so, can't that be expressed in XML something like this:
>>> >
>>> > <Classrooms>
>>> > <Classroom1>
>>> > <ClassesTaught>
>>> > <Class>math</Class>
>>> > <Class>science</Class>
>>> > <Class>writing</Class>
>>> > </ClassesTaught>
>>> > </Classroom1>
>>> > <Classroom2>
>>> > <ClassesTaught>
>>> > <Class>art</Class>
>>> > <Class>history</Class>
>>> > <Class>writing</Class>
>>> > </ClassesTaught>
>>> > </Classroom2>
>>> > </Classrooms>
>>> >
>>> > Dimitre wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > XML may not be good at representing concurrency (overlap
>>> just on
>>> > one-dimension -- time).
>>> >
>>> > Is this an example of concurrency?
>>> >
>>> > During times 1 - 3 John Doe is driving from Boston to NYC and
>>> during
>>> > the same times Sally Smith is driving from LA to San Diego.
>>> >
>>> > Is that an example of what you mean? If so, can't that be
>>> expressed
>>> > in XML something like this:
>>> >
>>> > <DrivingTrips>
>>> > <Person>
>>> > <Name>John Doe</Name>
>>> > <Itinerary>
>>> > <Start>Boston</Start>
>>> > <End>NYC</End>
>>> > </Itinerary>
>>> > <DriveTimes>
>>> > <Time1/>
>>> > <Time2/>
>>> > <Time3/>
>>> > </DriveTimes>
>>> > </Person>
>>> > <Person>
>>> > <Name>Sally Smith</Name>
>>> > <Itinerary>
>>> > <Start>LA</Start>
>>> > <End>San Diego</End>
>>> > </Itinerary>
>>> > <DriveTimes>
>>> > <Time1/>
>>> > <Time2/>
>>> > <Time3/>
>>> > </DriveTimes>
>>> > </Person>
>>> > </DrivingTrips>
>>> >
>>> > Peter said:
>>> >
>>> > > CSV is better at expressing row-and-column type data.
>>> >
>>> > That might well be true, but it is possible to express
>>> > row-and-column concepts in XML. That is, the row-and-column
>>> concept
>>> > in not outside the realm of concepts expressible by the XML
>>> language.
>>> >
>>> > > Various forms of database are better at expressing other
>>> layouts
>>> > of atomic and relational data.
>>> >
>>> > Again, that might well be true but the concept of a table is
>>> > expressible in XML.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you Peter, Dimitre, and Gerrit but you haven't (yet)
>>> convinced
>>> > me that there are concepts that are outside the realm of
>>> concepts
>>> > expressible using the language called XML.
>>> >
>>> > A friend of mine is Chinese and today I asked her: "Are there
>>> > concepts that you can express in English that you cannot
>>> express in
>>> > Chinese?" She responded, "Yes, there are concepts in
>>> English for
>>> > which there is no equivalent in Chinese." (The reverse is
>>> also true
>>> > -- there are concepts that can be expressed in Chinese that
>>> cannot
>>> > be expressed in English.)
>>> >
>>> > Are there concepts in data language XYZ that cannot be
>>> expressed in
>>> > the data language we call XML? What are the boundaries of the
>>> > language we call XML, in terms of concepts that can be
>>> expressed?
>>> > How does the XML language bound (limit) ones thinking
>>> about data?
>>> >
>>> > /Roger
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dimitre Novatchev
>>> ---------------------------------------
>>> Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
>>> ---------------------------------------
>>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> Never fight an inanimate object
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the
>>> biggest mistake of all
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether
>>> what you're doing is work or play
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> To achieve the impossible dream, try going to sleep.
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> Typing monkeys will write all Shakespeare's works in 200yrs.Will they
>>> write all patents, too? :)
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> Sanity is madness put to good use.
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> I finally figured out the only reason to be alive is to enjoy it.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
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>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
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>
--
Gerrit Imsieke
Geschäftsführer / Managing Director
le-tex publishing services GmbH
Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany
Phone +49 341 355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510
gerrit.imsieke@le-tex.de, http://www.le-tex.de
Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930
Geschäftsführer / Managing Directors:
Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt
_______________________________________________________________________
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