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List:       wikipedia-l
Subject:    Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Please clarify the honorary administrator status
From:       erik_moeller () gmx ! de (Erik Moeller)
Date:       2004-03-31 18:58:06
Message-ID: 95vRVstCpVB () erik_moeller
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Tim-
> Currently they have more abilities than bureaucrats. They can grant or
> revoke any level of access. Currently bureaucrats can only grant
> bureaucrat or admin status.

I think the best way to go about this is to simply have two types of  
bureaucrats, local bureaucrats who can add and remove all user privileges  
and have access to other high level maintenance functions, and interwiki  
(super-)bureaucrats who can do this on any wiki. I think this additional  
"steward" level is needlessly confusing.

> Additional features may be implemented depending on community sentiment.
> Ultimately I would like to see stewards capable of configuring the power
> structure on each wiki individually

We are entering very dangerous territory here. Your original proposal was  
to decentralize power, and that is all well and good. But this idea, to  
configure power structures on a local level, has a lot of room for long- 
term abuse.

Let's say I am a highly influential and generally good-natured user who is  
very active on, say, the Nepali Wikipedia. I'm also known and trusted on  
the English Wikipedia, so I am quickly given the "keys" to this new power  
structure configuration module for ne.wikipedia.org.

Now let's say I happen to believe that it's a good idea to let sysops ban  
any user for repeated POV edits, given prior warnings. I'm sure there are  
many otherwise quite reasonable people who would believe that this is a  
good idea. Because of my influence and my level of control, it would be  
very easy for me to implement this power structure on the Nepali  
Wikipedia.

As the Nepali Wikipedia grows, this principle becomes quite established.  
"POV users" are routinely banned arbitrarily. Because of my influence, I  
have managed to become the "last instance" of appeals -- there is no  
voting before banning, but I, the "steward", have obtained a position that  
effectively allows me to veto or approve any ban. Because I, and nobody  
else, can desysop users, I can easily enforce this principle.

At some point in 2008, some very eloquent English-speaking user of the  
Nepali Wikipedia complains about this unfair power structure, appeals to  
Jimbo, the mailing lists etc. However, he is quickly shouted down by  
people who fear for the autonomy of "their" Wikimedia wikis. They will  
defend almost any rule on the Nepali Wikipedia as being "the business of  
the Nepalese" and argue that Jimbo et al. should stay out of it, because  
they are afraid that if they do not do so, their own idiosyncratic  
policies will come under scrutiny.

"Individual projects should have this level of autonomy!" they will say.  
And: "These rules have been in place for years, there's no reason to  
change them now." There is a high level of tension between the English and  
the non-English spheres, so Jimbo et al. will stay out of it to keep the  
peace. This will set a precedent and other complainants will be similarly  
shouted down.

Now everyone in this scenario acted with good intentions. However, one  
single user has effectively managed to obtain control over what is and  
isn't NPOV in a certain language Wikipedia. There might be more stewards  
later on, but that merely means a change from a monarchy into an  
oligarchy. Their decisions may be wrong or right, that doesn't matter, as  
I think we agree this is not a scenario we want to happen.

I don't like the idea of implementing power structuers on the local level.  
I see no need for it and a lot of ways for things to go wrong. Yes,  
there's a difference between a 20-person wiki and a 20000-person wiki. But  
these differences can be accounted for by developing a multi-stage power  
structure that can be generalized for all wikis, e.g.:

< 10 users    : no sysops or bureaucrats; use Meta to ask super
                -bureaucrats to set permissions accordingly
< 100 users   : at least one bureaucrat, local "Requests for adminship"
                page, sysops can ban users if there is general consensus
                to do so, bureaucrat can remove sysop status if there
                is consensus
< 1000 users  : "Requests for bureaucrat status" page, appeals process,
                arbitration committee
1000+ users   : quickpoll-style system for dealing with emergency
                situations

I find it highly improbable that the cultural differences are so great  
that we can not deal with the problems - vandalism, sysop status abuse  
etc. - on a general, language-independent level. If you approach this  
problem from a purely rational perspective I believe you will have to  
admit that this is quite clearly so.

In fact, I believe that many non-English wikipedians will embrace your  
proposal not for rational reasons, but purely because they want to grab  
every little bit of autonomy for "their" wiki that they can get.

On each reasonably large wiki there are at least a couple of users who are  
subconsciously motivated by a real drive for power. They will rationalize  
this by saying that "We don't want to be controlled by the English  
Wikipedia", "We have different problems that need different solutions",  
but in reality they are already planning on what to do with these new  
privileges, and not all outcomes will be desirable. I have already  
observed that on some wikis, individual users have worked hard to  
establish a status of authority for themselves, and a tool like the one  
you are describing is exactly what they need to solidify that status.

It is also an excellent tool for astroturfers, who can dedicate a lot of  
time to becoming influential and powerful "stewards" on up-and-coming  
Wikimedia projects.

Keep in mind that Wikimedia is just a couple of years old, but it will be  
here for a long time to come. Unless we screw up in *major* ways, and  
someone creates a successful fork, the *minor* mistakes we make today will  
have *huge* consequences many years in the future that are very hard to  
foresee now, and very hard to repair later. The different languages  
effectively act as barriers, and it is very difficult to spot dangerous  
developments through these barriers. I am strongly opposed to effectively  
granting absolute autonomy to a small set of individuals in defining power  
structures that will likely be in place for years, if not decades.

Regards,

Erik
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