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List:       whatwg
Subject:    Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)
From:       Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa () apple ! com>
Date:       2014-07-02 0:34:38
Message-ID: 2162DBA2-EBB5-4A4E-AD24-375D9755B6DA () apple ! com
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On Jun 6, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Charles McCathie Nevile <chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:22:48 +0200, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp> wrote:
> 
> > On Jun 5, 2014, at 22:08, Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
> > > <nils@dieweltistgarnichtso.net> wrote:
> > > > Brett Zamir <brettz9@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-request@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
> > > > > > <daniel+whatwg@honestempire.com> wrote:
> ...
> > > > > > > There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
> > > > > > > pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > As an initial suggestion:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > <pronounce ipa=??a?p?d?>iPad</pronounce>
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
> > > > > > > International Phonetic Alphabet.)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > What are your thoughts on this,
> ...
> > > > > > This is already theoretically addressed by <link rel=pronunciation>,
> > > > > > linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format.  Nobody
> > > > > > implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
> > > > > Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
> > > > > referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
> > > > > accurately.
> > > > 
> > > > Is there any reason one cannot use the <ruby> element for pronunciation?
> > > > 
> > > > Example:
> > > > 
> > > > <ruby>Elfriede Jelinek<rp> (</rp><rt>ɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk</rt><rp>) \
> > > > </rp></ruby>
> > > 
> > > That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
> > > the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
> > > tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.
> > 
> > True, but one could still use <ruby> for its semantics, and visually use the CSS \
> > to hide the pronunciations: 
> > rp, rt, rtc { display: none; }
> 
> In general screen readers respect HTML. If you use display:none they will not \
> render that content. So please do not do that. 
> Besides, the information is normally useful to people who can see it too - or who \
> can partially see it. 
> > Screen readers may have supported reading text in <rt> instead of its base text \
> > when they supported Japanese. At least some screen readers in Japan does this.
> 
> The common use case for Ruby in both chinese and japanese, as far as I understand, \
> is to provide pronunciation. I don't see why that would be inappropriate in \
> general.

I agree.  The whole idea of using ruby for other kinds of footnote-like annotations \
is rather red herring because that's not how ruby is used.  Given the presentation of \
ruby elements are now fully spec'ed by CSS, there's nothing that prevents authors \
from using other HTML elements such as span, or even add a new element for \
annotations.  Or perhaps adding some attribute on ruby indicating whether a given \
ruby text is used to annotate or to indicate pronunciation might be sufficient.

-  R. Niwa


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