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List: webkit-dev
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] Request for position on Badging API
From: Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa () webkit ! org>
Date: 2020-02-20 8:24:19
Message-ID: CABNRm63iO8qeTHpLjDcaMQ7VFtNj-dvVCuTbbeEA5jCSGBOkiw () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 4:32 PM Matt Giuca <mgiuca@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 11:18, Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:29 PM Matt Giuca <mgiuca@chromium.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 18:14, Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 4:02 PM Matt Giuca <mgiuca@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the replies. Folding both Dean and Ryosuke's emails into
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 at 03:03, Dean Jackson <dino@apple.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Not speaking for all of WebKit, and definitely not all of Apple, but
>>>>>> I think this seems like a good idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure I get the distinction between app badges and document
>>>>>> badges though. I'd also like to see some specification text describing how
>>>>>> the browser should ignore multiple set/clear operations executed in rapid
>>>>>> succession (e.g. to create a blinking badge) - maybe the limit is one badge
>>>>>> operation per minute or something?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good suggestion. Filed an issue:
>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/68
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, given that the main use case for this would be alerting the user
>>>>>> to a notification, it seems like it should be able to link it directly to
>>>>>> that. This would provide the ability for a push notification to trigger the
>>>>>> badge without ever firing up the page context.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "link directly to that". We've
>>>>> deliberately specified this as separate to notifications (since you may or
>>>>> may not want the badge to be set without one). If you want to show a
>>>>> notification and a badge at the same time, you can use both APIs together.
>>>>> If you want to have a push notification set the badge when the service
>>>>> worker runs, you can do that (but as has been discussed at length:
>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/28, you *can't* currently set
>>>>> a badge without a notification from a push message).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 at 03:49, Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, we have two concerns raised internally at Apple:
>>>>>> * The integration of this API with push service worker would require
>>>>>> running scripts in order to update the badge. This will pose a serious
>>>>>> power consumption issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That isn't a feature of the current proposal. The spec doesn't give
>>>>> service worker push any new capabilities that it didn't already have (in
>>>>> particular, if the browser requires the push message to show a
>>>>> notification, that is still true; you simply cannot set a badge from a push
>>>>> message without showing a notification). See
>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/28 and
>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/badging/blob/master/explainer.md#background-updates
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> This is something we've given some thought to. We (Google) would like
>>>>> to eventually see it possible to set a badge in the background without a
>>>>> notification. But the power consumption and privacy issues are well known,
>>>>> and at this stage, it is not being proposed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because all background processes (including non-foreground tabs) are
>>>> suspend on iOS, this makes this feature pretty much useless. If the user is
>>>> currently seeing a website, then there is no need for updating the badge
>>>> since the user is already there. On the other hand, if the user isn't
>>>> currently seeing the website, then the website' scripts are never gonna run.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I see. So it sounds like this API would be useful but only once combined
>>> with a future proposal to let badges be set via push.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> * We don't want every website to start using this API to increase
>>>>>> "engagement".
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean as a way of drawing additional attention to itself? Well,
>>>>> the setAppBadge API can only be used by installed applications, so that
>>>>> doesn't apply to every site the user might visit. And the user agent / OS
>>>>> can provide the user with UI to suppress badges on a per-app basis if an
>>>>> app is too spammy. The setClientBadge API could be used by any website to
>>>>> draw attention, but the user agent should make the badge sufficiently
>>>>> subtle that this is no more abusive than a favicon, which can already be
>>>>> used to show a pseudo-badge.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since there is not a concept of installed web apps in Safari on macOS,
>>>> this isn't going to work there.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The setClientBadge API still makes sense on Safari on macOS.
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't because we don't have a concept of installed apps, and we
>> don't want to let any website use this API as that may annoy users.
>>
>
> I just want to be clear about what setClientBadge is for. (And note that
> nobody has implemented this yet; it's just in the draft spec as proposed by
> Marcos Caceres from Firefox.)
>
> This has nothing to do with installed apps. It's just about being able to
> badge the current document's tab, as seen in the first screenshot in the
> explainer:
> https://github.com/WICG/badging/blob/master/explainer.md#overview
> This is something that sites can already do (by modifying the page's
> favicon), but the API gives sites a way to set the badge semantically,
> which is advantageous because it means the UA can provide a consistent look
> and feel across all sites, accessibility features can announce badge
> changes, etc.
>
I'm pretty certain that Safari won't let you update the favicon while the
web page is open. It's also worth noting that Safari on macOS doesn't show
favicon for each tab unless the user manually turns it on in preferences.
- R. Niwa
On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 16:27 Matt Giuca <mgiuca@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi WebKit team,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have previously proposed the Badging API (
>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/badging) to provide websites with a
>>>>>>> mechanism to set a badge (a small dot or number) on the current document's
>>>>>>> tab, or for installed applications, on the app icon in the system shelf or
>>>>>>> home screen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would WebKit / Safari be interested in implementing the API now or
>>>>>>> in the future?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are planning to ship in Chromium soon:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/fHc49JNFTAU/m/bJD25Yr7CAAJ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Giuca
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> webkit-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - R. Niwa
>>>>>>
>>>>>
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, \
Feb 19, 2020 at 4:32 PM Matt Giuca <<a \
href="mailto:mgiuca@chromium.org">mgiuca@chromium.org</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On \
Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 11:18, Ryosuke Niwa <<a href="mailto:rniwa@webkit.org" \
target="_blank">rniwa@webkit.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:29 PM \
Matt Giuca <<a href="mailto:mgiuca@chromium.org" \
target="_blank">mgiuca@chromium.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 \
at 18:14, Ryosuke Niwa <<a href="mailto:rniwa@webkit.org" \
target="_blank">rniwa@webkit.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div \
class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On \
Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 4:02 PM Matt Giuca <<a href="mailto:mgiuca@chromium.org" \
target="_blank">mgiuca@chromium.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Thanks for the \
replies. Folding both Dean and Ryosuke's emails into one.</div><div \
dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 17 Feb \
2020 at 03:03, Dean Jackson <<a href="mailto:dino@apple.com" \
target="_blank">dino@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Not speaking for all of WebKit, and \
definitely not all of Apple, but I think this seems like a good \
idea.<div><br></div><div>I'm not sure I get the distinction between app badges \
and document badges though. I'd also like to see some specification text \
describing how the browser should ignore multiple set/clear operations executed in \
rapid succession (e.g. to create a blinking badge) - maybe the limit is one badge \
operation per minute or something?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Good \
suggestion. Filed an issue: <a href="https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/68" \
target="_blank">https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/68</a></div><div><br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>Also, given that the main use case for \
this would be alerting the user to a notification, it seems like it should be able to \
link it directly to that. This would provide the ability for a push notification to \
trigger the badge without ever firing up the page \
context.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not sure what you \
mean by "link directly to that". We've deliberately specified this as \
separate to notifications (since you may or may not want the badge to be set without \
one). If you want to show a notification and a badge at the same time, you can use \
both APIs together. If you want to have a push notification set the badge when the \
service worker runs, you can do that (but as has been discussed at length: <a \
href="https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/28" \
target="_blank">https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/28</a>, you <i>can't</i> \
currently set a badge without a notification from a push \
message).</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 at 03:49, Ryosuke Niwa <<a \
href="mailto:rniwa@webkit.org" target="_blank">rniwa@webkit.org</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div \
dir="auto">For the record, we have two concerns raised internally at \
Apple:</div></div><div dir="auto"> * The integration of this API with push service \
worker would require running scripts in order to update the badge. This will pose a \
serious power consumption issue.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That \
isn't a feature of the current proposal. The spec doesn't give service worker \
push any new capabilities that it didn't already have (in particular, if the \
browser requires the push message to show a notification, that is still true; you \
simply cannot set a badge from a push message without showing a notification). See \
<a href="https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/28" \
target="_blank">https://github.com/WICG/badging/issues/28</a> and <a \
href="https://github.com/WICG/badging/blob/master/explainer.md#background-updates" \
target="_blank">https://github.com/WICG/badging/blob/master/explainer.md#background-updates</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>This \
is something we've given some thought to. We (Google) would like to eventually \
see it possible to set a badge in the background without a notification. But the \
power consumption and privacy issues are well known, and at this stage, it is not \
being proposed.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Because all \
background processes (including non-foreground tabs) are suspend on iOS, this makes \
this feature pretty much useless. If the user is currently seeing a website, then \
there is no need for updating the badge since the user is already there. On the other \
hand, if the user isn't currently seeing the website, then the website' \
scripts are never gonna run.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I see. \
So it sounds like this API would be useful but only once combined with a future \
proposal to let badges be set via push.</div><div> </div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px \
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px \
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div \
dir="auto"> * We don't want every website to start using this API to increase \
"engagement".</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you mean as a way of \
drawing additional attention to itself? Well, the setAppBadge API can only be used by \
installed applications, so that doesn't apply to every site the user might visit. \
And the user agent / OS can provide the user with UI to suppress badges on a per-app \
basis if an app is too spammy. The setClientBadge API could be used by any website to \
draw attention, but the user agent should make the badge sufficiently subtle that \
this is no more abusive than a favicon, which can already be used to show a \
pseudo-badge.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Since there is not a \
concept of installed web apps in Safari on macOS, this isn't going to work \
there.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The setClientBadge API still \
makes sense on Safari on macOS.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It \
doesn't because we don't have a concept of installed apps, and we don't \
want to let any website use this API as that may annoy \
users.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I just want to be clear \
about what setClientBadge is for. (And note that nobody has implemented this yet; \
it's just in the draft spec as proposed by Marcos Caceres from \
Firefox.)</div><div><br></div><div>This has nothing to do with installed apps. \
It's just about being able to badge the current document's tab, as seen in \
the first screenshot in the explainer:</div><div><a \
href="https://github.com/WICG/badging/blob/master/explainer.md#overview" \
target="_blank">https://github.com/WICG/badging/blob/master/explainer.md#overview</a><br></div><div>This \
is something that sites can already do (by modifying the page's favicon), but the \
API gives sites a way to set the badge semantically, which is advantageous because it \
means the UA can provide a consistent look and feel across all sites, accessibility \
features can announce badge changes, \
etc.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm pretty certain that \
Safari won't let you update the favicon while the web page is open. It's also \
worth noting that Safari on macOS doesn't show favicon for each tab unless the \
user manually turns it on in preferences.</div><div><br></div><div>- R. \
Niwa</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 16:27 \
Matt Giuca <<a href="mailto:mgiuca@chromium.org" \
target="_blank">mgiuca@chromium.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi WebKit team,<br><br>I have \
previously proposed the Badging API (<a href="https://github.com/WICG/badging" \
target="_blank">https://github.com/WICG/badging</a>) to provide websites with a \
mechanism to set a badge (a small dot or number) on the current document's tab, \
or for installed applications, on the app icon in the system shelf or home \
screen.<br><br>Would WebKit / Safari be interested in implementing the API now or in \
the future?<br><br>We are planning to ship in Chromium soon:<br><a \
href="https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/fHc49JNFTAU/m/bJD25Yr7CAAJ" \
target="_blank">https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/fHc49JNFTAU/m/bJD25Yr7CAAJ</a><br><br>Regards</div><div \
dir="ltr"><br><br>Matt Giuca<br></div> \
_______________________________________________<br> webkit-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org" \
target="_blank">webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org</a><br> <a \
href="https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev" rel="noreferrer" \
target="_blank">https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev</a><br> \
</blockquote></div></div> </div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">- R. Niwa</div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
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