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List: webkit-dev
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] MathML Refresh Heads up
From: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs () apple ! com>
Date: 2019-03-15 23:29:22
Message-ID: 99263ED9-FF51-417A-9773-DBD6154D4807 () apple ! com
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> On Mar 15, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Frédéric Wang <fwang@igalia.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ryosuke and Myles,
>
> Thank you for your reply. First, the exact thing about what will be in MathML Core \
> is still open, people are welcome to join and participate to the MathML CG [1] or \
> comment on the GitHub tracker [2].
> Our plan was also to remove features from WebKit but of course ultimately the \
> consensus has to be made in the WebKit community (hence our heads up email). What \
> do you suggest? Should we send "intent to remove" to this mailing list? Or is it \
> enough to cc' Apple reviewers on bugs in order to get the approval? Something else?
It's easier for us to check Apple Books and iOS App compatibility for a batch of \
possible removals at once, instead of one at a time. We can start by looking at the \
set of items below.
It's helpful to give a heads-up other than the normal review process, because our \
main concern is compatibility, and not all reviewers will be able to easily access \
the corpus of app-specific or books-specific content that may be affected.
We assume web compatibility is not a major issue since MathML isn't in all browsers \
and in general is not widely used on websites, but there might also be some value in \
doing web usage analysis for these features if there's any meaningful web usage of \
MathML at all.
>
> For now, these are the features the CG has already agreed to not include in MathML \
> Core (more to come). We would like to propose to remove them from WebKit:
> * "thin", "thick", "medium" values of mfrac's linethickness attribute ( \
> https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/4 \
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/4> )
> * "small" "normal" "big" values of mathsize attribute ( \
> https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/7 \
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/7> )
> * nonzero unitless values for MathML lengths ( \
> https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/24 \
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/24> )
> * fontfamily, fontweight, fontstyle, fontsize, color, background MathML attributes \
> ( https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/5 \
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/5> )
> In any case, it would be very appreciated to get some analysis about the usage of \
> MathML markup used in Apple's product. How can we proceed to obtain it?
> Thanks,
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/community/mathml4/ <https://www.w3.org/community/mathml4/>
> [2] https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/ \
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/>
> On 15/03/2019 22:33, Myles C. Maxfield wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On Mar 15, 2019, at 11:29 AM, Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org \
> > > <mailto:rniwa@webkit.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 3:08 AM Frédéric Wang <fwang@igalia.com \
> > > <mailto:fwang@igalia.com>> wrote: Hello WebKit developers,
> > >
> > > As some of you may know, Igalia is working on MathML support in Chromium
> > > this year [1]. As part of that effort we joined a new MathML Refresh
> > > Community Group [2] and one goal is to focus on a core spec for browser
> > > implementations [3] to:
> > > - Remove deprecated/uncommon/duplicate math features that could be
> > > implemented by polyfills (relying on MathML core and other web
> > > technologies).
> > >
> > > I'd be very much concerned about backwards compatibility here when it come to \
> > > removing any features. It's important to notice that WebKit is also used by \
> > > hundreds of thousands of iOS apps and macOS apps. How do we know we won't break \
> > > those applications?
> > > In general, I don't agree with whatever Google said about MathML being too \
> > > complex, etc…
> >
> > The original sentence doesn't say they will be removing anything in WebKit. There \
> > are plenty of features that have been removed from specs that we continue \
> > supporting in WebKit for backwards compatibility.
> > We could also consider migrating our implementation to a JS polyfill if one \
> > exists.
> > Is there a characterization of which features are planned for deprecation? We \
> > might be able to do some analysis on iBooks' and iOS apps' content.
> > >
> > > - Add more detailed algorithms (based on TeX/OpenType/CSS layout) to
> > > help implementation and conformance testing.
> > > - Align MathML with CSS/HTML (parsing, layout...), introducing new web
> > > platform features (CSS, fonts...) for math if necessary.
> >
> > This sounds wonderful! A more coherent MathML story going forward would be \
> > fantastic.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, these seem like very valuable improvements.
> > >
> > > We expect that this effort will improve browser interoperability and
> > > reduce complexity of current implementations.
> > >
> > > Given there aren't too many websites that deploy MathML directly on production, \
> > > my concerns are more about existing iOS and madOS apps that embed WKWebView or \
> > > WebView / UIWebView and use MathML.
> > > - R. Niwa
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > webkit-dev mailing list
> > > webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org <mailto:webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org>
> > > https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev \
> > > <https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev>
> >
>
> --
> Frédéric Wang
> _______________________________________________
> webkit-dev mailing list
> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
> https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; \
charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; \
line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote \
type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 15, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Frédéric Wang \
<<a href="mailto:fwang@igalia.com" class="">fwang@igalia.com</a>> \
wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<div id="magicdomid63" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">Hi Ryosuke and Myles,</span></div>
<div id="magicdomid64" class="ace-line"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="magicdomid65" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">Thank you for your reply. First, \
the exact thing about what will be in MathML Core is still open, people are welcome \
to join and participate to the MathML CG [1] or comment on the GitHub
tracker [2].</span></div>
<div id="magicdomid66" class="ace-line"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="magicdomid67" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">Our plan was also to remove \
features from WebKit but of course ultimately the consensus has to be made in the \
WebKit community (hence our heads up email). What do you suggest? Should we send
"intent to remove" to this mailing list? Or is it enough to
cc' Apple reviewers on bugs in order to get the approval?
Something else?</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br \
class=""></div><div>It's easier for us to check Apple Books and iOS App compatibility \
for a batch of possible removals at once, instead of one at a time. We can start by \
looking at the set of items below.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It's helpful to \
give a heads-up other than the normal review process, because our main concern is \
compatibility, and not all reviewers will be able to easily access the corpus of \
app-specific or books-specific content that may be affected. </div><div><br \
class=""></div><div>We assume web compatibility is not a major issue since MathML \
isn't in all browsers and in general is not widely used on websites, but there might \
also be some value in doing web usage analysis for these features if there's any \
meaningful web usage of MathML at all.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" \
class=""><div class=""><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><div \
class="moz-cite-prefix"> <div id="magicdomid68" class="ace-line"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="magicdomid98" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">For now, these are the features the \
CG has already agreed to not include in MathML Core (more to come). We would like to
propose to remove them from WebKit:</span></div>
<div id="magicdomid70" class="ace-line"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="magicdomid71" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">* "thin", "thick", "medium" values \
of mfrac's linethickness attribute ( </span><span class=" \
author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j url"><a \
href="https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/4" \
class="">https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/4</a></span><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"> )</span></div>
<div id="magicdomid72" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">* "small" "normal" "big" values of \
mathsize attribute ( </span><span class="url \
author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"><a \
href="https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/7" \
class="">https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/7</a></span><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"> )</span></div>
<div id="magicdomid73" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">* nonzero unitless values for \
MathML lengths ( </span><span class="url author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"><a \
href="https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/24" \
class="">https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/24</a></span><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"> )</span></div>
<div id="magicdomid74" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">* fontfamily, fontweight, \
fontstyle, fontsize, color, background MathML attributes ( </span><span class="url \
author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"><a \
href="https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/5" \
class="">https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/5</a></span><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"> )</span></div> <div \
id="magicdomid75" class="ace-line"><br class=""> </div>
<div id="magicdomid100" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">In any case, it would be very \
appreciated to get some analysis about the usage of MathML markup used in Apple's \
product. How can we proceed to obtain it?</span></div>
<div id="magicdomid77" class="ace-line"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="magicdomid99" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">Thank</span><span \
class="author-a-ouz68zz90zz90zl1z83zz83zbz122zz87ziz71zpk">s</span><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">,</span></div> <div \
id="magicdomid79" class="ace-line"><br class=""> </div>
<div id="magicdomid80" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">[1] </span><span class="url \
author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"><a \
href="https://www.w3.org/community/mathml4/" \
class="">https://www.w3.org/community/mathml4/</a></span></div> <div \
id="magicdomid81" class="ace-line"><span \
class="author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j">[2] </span><span class="url \
author-a-az69zz77zez70z1j31z67zjz88z938j"><a \
href="https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/" \
class="">https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/</a></span></div> </div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/03/2019 22:33, Myles C. Maxfield
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:F6A8BD15-250D-42C0-828C-465B54813C40@apple.com" \
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 15, 2019, at 11:29 AM, Ryosuke Niwa <<a \
href="mailto:rniwa@webkit.org" class="" \
moz-do-not-send="true">rniwa@webkit.org</a>> wrote:</div> <br \
class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 15, 2019
at 3:08 AM Frédéric Wang <<a href="mailto:fwang@igalia.com" \
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">fwang@igalia.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello
WebKit developers,<br class="">
<br class="">
As some of you may know, Igalia is working on MathML
support in Chromium<br class="">
this year [1]. As part of that effort we joined a new
MathML Refresh<br class="">
Community Group [2] and one goal is to focus on a core
spec for browser<br class="">
implementations [3] to:<br class="">
- Remove deprecated/uncommon/duplicate math features
that could be<br class="">
implemented by polyfills (relying on MathML core and
other web<br class="">
technologies).<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'd be very much concerned about backwards
compatibility here when it come to removing any
features.</div>
<div class="">It's important to notice that WebKit is
also used by hundreds of thousands of iOS apps and
macOS apps.<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">How do we know we won't break those
applications?<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In general, I don't agree with whatever
Google said about MathML being too complex, etc…</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The original sentence doesn't say they will be removing
anything in WebKit. There are plenty of features that have
been removed from specs that we continue supporting in WebKit
for backwards compatibility.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We could also consider migrating our implementation to a JS
polyfill if one exists.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Is there a characterization of which features are planned
for deprecation? We might be able to do some analysis on
iBooks' and iOS apps' content.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">-
Add more detailed algorithms (based on
TeX/OpenType/CSS layout) to<br class="">
help implementation and conformance testing.<br class="">
- Align MathML with CSS/HTML (parsing, layout...),
introducing new web<br class="">
platform features (CSS, fonts...) for math if
necessary.<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This sounds wonderful! A more coherent MathML story going
forward would be fantastic.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">On the other hand, these seem like very
valuable improvements.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">We
expect that this effort will improve browser
interoperability and<br class="">
reduce complexity of current implementations.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Given there aren't too many websites that
deploy MathML directly on production, my concerns are
more about existing iOS and madOS apps that embed
WKWebView or WebView / UIWebView and use MathML.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- R. Niwa</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
webkit-dev mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org" class="" \
moz-do-not-send="true">webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org</a><br class=""> <a \
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" \
href="https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev">https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev</a><br \
class=""> </div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Frédéric Wang
</pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">webkit-dev mailing \
list<br class=""><a href="mailto:webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org" \
class="">webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org</a><br \
class="">https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev<br \
class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>
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