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List: vtk-developers
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] Add pugixml to VTK
From: Elvis Stansvik <elvis.stansvik () orexplore ! com>
Date: 2018-06-25 7:05:19
Message-ID: CAE-7VJmaKhGA2X9MJ+vdq6b0+HDAA_hDuvDVbZAEzbrTcagpLA () mail ! gmail ! com
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Den fre 22 juni 2018 20:28Dan Lipsa <dan.lipsa@kitware.com> skrev:
> Thank you all for your comments. I am trying to summarize them next:
>
> Advantages
> 1. ParaView, SMTK and CMB already use pugixml, so instead of maintaining
> this library in three projects we'll do it in one VTK (for those of us that
> work on more than one of these projects)
> 2. pugixml has a clean interface and it is (much) faster than the
> alternatives available in VTK. (only the latest pugixml version?)
>
> Drawbacks:
> 1. no validation
> 2. no streaming (SAX interface)
> 3. an additional library to maintain in VTK.
> 4. Three different XML libraries in VTK.
>
> Looking at the drawbacks: The features named in drawbacks 1. and 2. are
> not important if you don't want to use them. If you do, you have
> alternatives (libxml2 and expat).
> I think drawback 3 is mitigated by advantage 1.
>
> 4. Seems to be the case that different XML libraries have different
> strengths (completeness versus speed). Given that, we either use the most
> complete library and give up speed or we have several libraries available
> and use them based on the feature we need most. VTK already seems to have
> taken this path with libxml2 and expat. I also suspect that in certain
> cases we just use the XML library available at the time, so we could
> convert the code to use a different XML library - Of course this requires
> time and work!
>
> I setup a survey to better assess the community feeling on this:
>
> https://goo.gl/forms/3cnOk6To0zuaVP2k2
>
>
I'm agnostic :)
An idea would be to maybe try to eliminate expat at some point afterwards,
to bring it down to just two libs again? I don't think the speed advantage
of expat over libxml2 could really matter that much? (libxml2 has both a
SAX-like and a pull-style reader API).
libxml2 can then be the power horse for those who want 100% conformance and
possibility of validation, while pugi for those who need speedy DOM.
I wonder what are the speed-requiring use cases for DOM parsing though? Are
you parsing many small docs or a few big ones? Is the XML parsing a true
bottleneck?
Elvis
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 12:13 PM Robert Michael O'Bara <
> bob.obara@kitware.com> wrote:
>
>> SMTK and CMB use pugixml for years and have been very happy with it.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2018, at 12:07 PM, Jonathan Borduas <
>> jonathan.borduas@caboma.com> wrote:
>>
>> My 2 cents here is that speed is of the essence. Validating XML are good
>> for debugging, however I found that most don't take the time to create an
>> XSD file to enable the validation.
>>
>>
>>
>> In most of our cases at Caboma, XML and meant to be human readable and
>> editable, but it is rare that we manually edit the structure of an XML
>> file.
>>
>> However, we do wait after .xml parsing when the files are 20mb+. We hope
>> that the community would move to the latest version of pugixml (1.9): by
>> looking at the changelogs, there was a lot of performance improvements
>> since version 1.4 (the current version used in ParaView).
>> https://pugixml.org/docs/manual.html#v1.5
>>
>>
>>
>> Best
>>
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Borduas
>>
>> CTO, Caboma Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* vtk-developers <vtk-developers-bounces@public.kitware.com> *On
>> Behalf Of *David E DeMarle
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 20, 2018 11:49 AM
>> *To:* Elvis Stansvik <elvis.stansvik@orexplore.com>
>> *Cc:* vtkdev <vtk-developers@vtk.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [vtk-developers] Add pugixml to VTK
>>
>>
>>
>> I was thinking more if there should be a push towards one single lib, ...
>>
>>
>>
>> I for one would really like us to get down to just one xml parser in VTK.
>> The more the less merrier in terms of maintenance effort and project
>> complexity eh?
>>
>>
>>
>> David E DeMarle
>> Kitware, Inc.
>> Principal Engineer
>> 21 Corporate Drive
>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> Phone: 518-881-4909
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 3:36 PM Elvis Stansvik <
>> elvis.stansvik@orexplore.com> wrote:
>>
>> 2018-06-16 8:37 GMT+02:00 Chiranjib Sur <sur.chiranjib@gmail.com>:
>>
>> My few cents... The disadvantage with pugixml is that it's a
>> non-validating parser. If I want to make full use of XML schema for any
>> custom developed plugin, it's a very poor choice then.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also worth noting that it's a DOM-like parser only AFAIK, so if you want
>> to do streaming parsing in a push paradigm à la SAX or a pull paradigm à la
>> libxml2's reader interface, you'd need to turn to another library. Note
>> that may not be a problem if VTK already has libxml2 as a dep, since then
>> you could use that. I was thinking more if there should be a push towards
>> one single lib, then it might make sense to pick one that has both DOM and
>> streaming interfaces (don't know if that's a goal/consideration though).
>>
>>
>>
>> Elvis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> Chiranjib
>>
>> ------
>> Using hand held device. Sorry for the typo, if any.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 11:59 PM Utkarsh Ayachit <
>> utkarsh.ayachit@kitware.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I thought Ben Boeckel was working on a removing as many things from
>> ThirdParty as possible (and making them parts of a superbuild). So perhaps
>> the CityGML reader should live in a VTK module that requires an external
>> pugi? I know pugi is small, but...
>>
>> I am not sure that's correct. He was doing that for Python 3rd party
>> modules. Are you referring to that?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>
>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
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>>
>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
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>> _______________________________________________
> Powered by www.kitware.com
>
> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>
> Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtk-developers
>
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<div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Den fre 22 juni 2018 \
20:28Dan Lipsa <<a \
href="mailto:dan.lipsa@kitware.com">dan.lipsa@kitware.com</a>> \
skrev:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Thank you all \
for your comments. I am trying to summarize them \
next:</div><div><br></div><div>Advantages</div><div>1. ParaView, SMTK and CMB already \
use pugixml, so instead of maintaining this library in three projects we'll do it \
in one VTK (for those of us that work on more than one of these \
projects)</div><div>2. pugixml has a clean interface and it is (much) faster than the \
alternatives available in VTK. (only the latest pugixml \
version?)</div><div><br></div><div>Drawbacks:</div><div>1. no validation</div><div>2. \
no streaming (SAX interface)</div><div>3. an additional library to maintain in \
VTK.</div><div>4. Three different XML libraries in \
VTK.</div><div><br></div><div>Looking at the drawbacks: The features named in \
drawbacks 1. and 2. are not important if you don't want to use them. If you do, \
you have alternatives (libxml2 and expat).</div><div>I think drawback 3 is mitigated \
by advantage 1.</div><div><br></div><div>4. Seems to be the case that different XML \
libraries have different strengths (completeness versus speed). Given that, we either \
use the most complete library and give up speed or we have several libraries \
available and use them based on the feature we need most. VTK already seems to have \
taken this path with libxml2 and expat. I also suspect that in certain cases we just \
use the XML library available at the time, so we could convert the code to use a \
different XML library - Of course this requires time and \
work!<br></div><div><br></div><div>I setup a survey to better assess the community \
feeling on this: </div><div><br></div><div><a \
href="https://goo.gl/forms/3cnOk6To0zuaVP2k2" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">https://goo.gl/forms/3cnOk6To0zuaVP2k2</a><br></div><div><br></div><div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div \
dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I'm agnostic :)</div><div \
dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">An idea would be to maybe try to eliminate expat \
at some point afterwards, to bring it down to just two libs again? I don't think \
the speed advantage of expat over libxml2 could really matter that much? (libxml2 has \
both a SAX-like and a pull-style reader API).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div \
dir="auto">libxml2 can then be the power horse for those who want 100% conformance \
and possibility of validation, while pugi for those who need speedy DOM.</div><div \
dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I wonder what are the speed-requiring use cases \
for DOM parsing though? Are you parsing many small docs or a few big ones? Is the XML \
parsing a true bottleneck?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div \
dir="auto">Elvis</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr"><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, \
Jun 20, 2018 at 12:13 PM Robert Michael O'Bara <<a \
href="mailto:bob.obara@kitware.com" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">bob.obara@kitware.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">SMTK and CMB use pugixml for years and have \
been very happy with it.<div><br></div><div>Bob<br><br><div \
id="m_22930864796171834m_6849869499684908950m_5552602244085916764AppleMailSignature">Sent \
from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 20, 2018, at 12:07 PM, Jonathan Borduas <<a \
href="mailto:jonathan.borduas@caboma.com" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">jonathan.borduas@caboma.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote \
type="cite"><div>
<div class="m_22930864796171834m_6849869499684908950m_5552602244085916764WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">My 2 cents here is that speed is of the essence. Validating XML \
are good for debugging, however I found that most don't take the time to create an \
XSD file to enable the validation. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In most of our cases at Caboma, XML and meant to be human \
readable and editable, but it is rare that we manually edit the structure of an XML \
file. <br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, we do wait after .xml parsing when the files are 20mb+. \
We hope that the community would move to the latest version of pugixml (1.9): by \
looking at the changelogs, there was a lot of performance improvements since version \
1.4 (the current version used in ParaView).<br>
<a href="https://pugixml.org/docs/manual.html#v1.5" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">https://pugixml.org/docs/manual.html#v1.5</a><u></u><u></u></p> <p \
class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Best<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jonathan Borduas<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">CTO, Caboma Inc. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> vtk-developers <<a \
href="mailto:vtk-developers-bounces@public.kitware.com" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">vtk-developers-bounces@public.kitware.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of \
</b>David E DeMarle<br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 20, 2018 11:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Elvis Stansvik <<a href="mailto:elvis.stansvik@orexplore.com" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">elvis.stansvik@orexplore.com</a>><br> <b>Cc:</b> \
vtkdev <<a href="mailto:vtk-developers@vtk.org" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">vtk-developers@vtk.org</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: \
[vtk-developers] Add pugixml to VTK<u></u><u></u></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> \
<u></u></p> <div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"> I was thinking more \
if there should be a push towards one single lib, ...<u></u><u></u></p> </blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I for one would really like us to get down to just one xml \
parser in VTK. The more the less merrier in terms of maintenance effort and project \
complexity eh?<u></u><u></u></p> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David E DeMarle<br>
Kitware, Inc.<br>
Principal Engineer<br>
21 Corporate Drive<br>
Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662<br>
Phone: 518-881-4909<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 3:36 PM Elvis Stansvik <<a \
href="mailto:elvis.stansvik@orexplore.com" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">elvis.stansvik@orexplore.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> </div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2018-06-16 8:37 GMT+02:00 Chiranjib Sur <<a \
href="mailto:sur.chiranjib@gmail.com" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">sur.chiranjib@gmail.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p> <blockquote \
style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My few cents... The disadvantage with pugixml is that it's a \
non-validating parser. If I want to make full use of XML schema for any custom \
developed plugin, it's a very poor choice then.<u></u><u></u></p> <div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any thoughts?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also worth noting that it's a DOM-like parser only AFAIK, so \
if you want to do streaming parsing in a push paradigm à la SAX or a pull paradigm à \
la libxml2's reader interface, you'd need to turn to another library. Note \
that may not be a problem if VTK already has libxml2 as a dep, since then you could \
use that. I was thinking more if there should be a push towards one single lib, then \
it might make sense to pick one that has both DOM and streaming interfaces (don't \
know if that's a goal/consideration though).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Elvis<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks and regards,<br>
Chiranjib<br>
<br>
------<br>
Using hand held device. Sorry for the typo, if any.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 11:59 PM Utkarsh Ayachit <<a \
href="mailto:utkarsh.ayachit@kitware.com" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">utkarsh.ayachit@kitware.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> </div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in \
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <p class="MsoNormal" \
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">> I thought Ben Boeckel was working on a removing as \
many things from ThirdParty as possible (and making them parts of a superbuild). So \
perhaps the CityGML reader should live in a VTK module that requires an external \
pugi? I know pugi is small, but...<br> <br>
I am not sure that's correct. He was doing that for Python 3rd party<br>
modules. Are you referring to that?<br>
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