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List:       tapestry-user
Subject:    Re: TapIDEA future, post "Time to move on"
From:       "Pedro Viegas" <pviegas () gmail ! com>
Date:       2006-08-31 20:37:10
Message-ID: b806c7280608311337k47a7397sf09c4cc1d8457d56 () mail ! gmail ! com
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+1 James.
Let's all please calm down, we all want the same thing, to make Tapestry
even better than it is, to keep improving it.
The fact we all care so much is a good thing, the fact that we're all so
committed to this can be an advantage.
But let's be very objective about things. We don't all have to agree on
everything. It's from the diversity of ideas and different points of view
that the best options rise.

And please, let's consider always all that a sum of a few very good software
architects/developers and their commitment to a project for some years now
have given us... in return of... not much.
I think we are all very much appreciated for all the effort that is behind
Tapestry. Let's keep that in mind and give the necessary time to let things
mature and get more concrete. I'm sure all we say is taken in consideration.
But we do have to try and focus on what matters.
I am also worried like I stated before on the future of my Tap 4 (or 4.1 to
be more precise) code. But I have to trust on people like Howard and Jesse
that they know what they are doing. Lets wait for a more mature idea before
we judge so harshly.

Anyway, one post I think was practically ignored.
Andreas took the initiative of making contacts and said...
"I believe that with Alex, Petr and Geertjan's help we can create something
useful and nice."

These people are willing. Commiters like Jesse although can't be active
participants in the work have offer support to the task (don't know how you
can keep adding work to the pile and keep the response you do! Should write
a book on time management and programming productivity! :-D).
If we can just find a way to make this willingness possible... how about it,
lets get focused on the problem. I have never seen before so much debate
with ideas and several people committed in this subject (although I'm still
quite new to this! :-)) so let's take advantage of the memento!

Opinions on how we can do this?
Options?
What do you propose?
Guess my previous layering idea was not so hot eh?

Regards,


On 8/31/06, James Carman <james@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> This conversation isn't heading in the right direction.  As the Tapestry
> community, we need to focus on trying to make Tapestry better.  Personal
> attacks against people that you don't agree with are not going to help the
> situation (not blaming either party here, but I've seen a similar thread
> in
> the past that got somewhat ugly).
>
> Yes, there is indeed somewhat of a disagreement here between the user
> community and the development community with respect to the future
> development of Tapestry.  How about we focus on figuring out what we can
> do
> to remedy that disagreement and come to a compromise?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Amanfo [mailto:famanfo@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:28 PM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Re: TapIDEA future, post "Time to move on"
>
> Yeah Jesse, I don't blame you. If I were the "Yes Sir" kind I would also
> say
> only Yes to my boss on anything without first analyzing myself if what
> he's
> doing makes sense. Fortunately I'm not that kind. I first think through my
> boss's request before going with him or her on issues. And in the
> environment that I live and work in, that is cherished very much. Better
> than following your boss blindly anywhere regardless of what.
> On the other hand, I may understand you. Being a commiter, I can imagine
> your sole goal may be to do cool things. But remember in the real world
> people are investing big bucks for results. To them, it's not about what
> Jesse finds cool and enjoy developing. They want results. Therefore in the
> real world if you tell people that during any major release they have to
> throw away their code base and invest another 100Ks' of dollars to be able
> to enjoy any new feature, all these because you had the appetite to do
> cool
> things, then to them you belong to the hobby group and no one would take
> your product seriously. I hope you would realize this fact someday.
>
> My .02 cent.
> Regards,
> F
>
> On 8/31/06, Jesse Kuhnert <jkuhnert@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > But you forget that I'm in Howard's camp as well...So please when you
> > mention facist regimes to include me as a leutenient at least. I would
> > make
> > the decision to support it again and again if given the chance.
> >
> > I mock you Mr. Amanfo. ~mock~
> >
> > On 8/31/06, Francis Amanfo <famanfo@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, Mr. Mind, let me humbly say that I'm not trolling. I'm
> mentioning
> > > things which I know are of great concern to very many people.
> > > Having read the following post by you on July 28:
> > >
> > > "... the majority of people will expect some kind of backward
> > > compatibility
> > > between T4 and T5 and that expectation would be natural. Perhaps if T5
> > > is renamed (e.g. 'Tapestries 1.0' or 'Lace 1.0' or sth else) then the
> > > expectation about backward compatibility will not be there?"
> > >
> > > I know you and I are not very far from each other in certain important
> > > issues. Being a Tapestry commiter, I wish you could use your influence
> > to
> > > discourage all these craziness going on with Tapestry of late. Namely,
> > > every
> > > major release equals radically re-inventing the wheel disregarding
> > > backward
> > > compatibility. And that decision made solely by one dictator who
> > wouldn't
> > > listen to his users and community.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > F
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/31/06, Mind Bridge <mindbridgeweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Howard sugested Geoff as a Tapestry committer entirely based on his
> > work
> > > > on
> > > > Spindle. In addition Geoff specifically asked you NOT to hijack his
> > name
> > > > for
> > > > your vendetta. Do the facts matter to you at all?
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, I presume you have written code that adds the T4 features
> to
> > > T3,
> > > >
> > > > while keeping it absolutely compatible. Is that correct?
> > > >
> > > > If this is not so, then your repeated comments are no longer
> > > constructive
> > > > criticism, but trolls instead, aimed to further an agenda that has
> > > nothing
> > > > to do with Tapestry at all. Interestingly, the very fact that you
> > > consider
> > > > Tapestry important enough to warrant your attention means that it is
> a
> > > > very
> > > > good alternative to what you really care about and must be
> eliminated
> > at
> > > > all
> > > > costs. Thank you, we should be honored that you think so highly of
> > > > Tapestry!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Francis Amanfo wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Henrik,
> > > > >
> > > > > Stop dreaming. If what you're saying is valid then we should have
> > got
> > > > > Spindle for Tap 4 now.
> > > > > The fact of the matter is Howard just didn't listen to Geoff. With
> > > > > Howard's
> > > > > current opinion on tools, I don't think he would make a tool drive
> > his
> > > > > fanatic and radical design decisions.
> > > > >
> > > > > My .02 cent.
> > > > > F
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8/30/06, hv @ Fashion Content <info@fashioncontent.com> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think the best thing is building on WST and Tap5, while Tap5 is
> > > > >> developed.
> > > > >> The amount of special tooling needed for Tap5 should be limited.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Judging form Geoff's posts the main problem with Spindle for Tap4
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > >> large number of possible ways to configure an application. One of
> > the
> > > > >> goals
> > > > >> for Tap5 is to simplify. So if we can start over on a new Spindle
> > > while
> > > > >> Tap5
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> still in its infancy, we can perhaps ensure that the simplicity
> is
> > > > >> achieved
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> the perspective of tooling.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Henrik
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Hugo Palma" <hugo.m.palma@gmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> > > > >> news:44F3586C.6070009@gmail.com...
> > > > >> > Since Geoff decided to leave the Spindle project i've been
> > thinking
> > > > >> about
> > > > >> > the future of TapIDEA. As many of you know, TapIDEA is built on
> > top
> > > > of
> > > > >> > Spindle, which means "No Spindle" -> "No TapIDEA".
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > There are several scenarios that can be put into account in the
> > > > current
> > > > >> > situation, and after a long consideration here are my
> > conclusions.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Someone else picks up Spindle where Geoff left off:
> > > > >> > I honestly don't think this is going to happen. AFAIK Spindle
> was
> > a
> > > > one
> > > > >> > man project so no one else has the know how to quickly get into
> > > gear
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > the project. Some might think that that person could be me, and
> > > > indeed
> > > > >> > i've become familiar with Spindle internals during the
> > development
> > > of
> > > > >> > TapIDEA. But, there's the free time factor. I just wouldn't be
> > able
> > > > to
> > > > >> > find the time to do it.
> > > > >> > Still, if this scenario were to be become true, TapIDEA would
> > live
> > > > on.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Spindle for T4 dies, a new project is born:
> > > > >> > Ok, so no Spindle and no TapIDEA for T4. What about T5 ? As
> Geoff
> > > as
> > > > >> > pointed out, T5 support is going to require an almost complete
> > > > rewrite
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > Spindle. So, in this scenario someone would implement
> Spindle(or
> > > > create
> > > > >> a
> > > > >> > whole new project) for IDE support for T5, and TapIDEA would
> > > follow.
> > > > I
> > > > >> > find that this is the scenario with the most chances of
> becoming
> > > > >> reality.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Spindle and TapIDEA die for good:
> > > > >> > Well, there's always the possibility that no one will volunteer
> > to
> > > > >> > continue our efforts of bringing IDE support to Tapestry. In
> this
> > > > >> scenario
> > > > >> > both Spindle and TapIDEA end their lives now.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > The TapIDEA project will be "hibernating" until one of these(or
> > any
> > > > >> other)
> > > > >> > scenarios become reality.
> > > > >> > I guess now it's up to the community to present their ideas
> about
> > > > this.
> > > > >> I
> > > > >> > hope that, together, we can give our contribution to making
> > > Tapestry
> > > > >> IDE
> > > > >> > support a reality.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Cheers,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Hugo
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > View this message in context:
> > >
> >
>
> http://www.nabble.com/TapIDEA-future%2C-post-%22Time-to-move-on%22-tf2179878
> .html#a6071765
> > > >
> > > > Sent from the Tapestry - User forum at Nabble.com.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jesse Kuhnert
> > Tapestry/Dojo/(and a dash of TestNG), team member/developer
> >
> > Open source based consulting work centered around
> > dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Pedro Viegas


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