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List: squeak-dev
Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Etoys history (was: Squeak-dev Digest, Vol 248, Issue 130)
From: Vanessa Freudenberg <vanessa () codefrau ! net>
Date: 2023-08-30 23:59:18
Message-ID: CAOWGXNB1abAJmKZ08QbyDuTMv0khTUzBuy+xwEYmStsweH2vkQ () mail ! gmail ! com
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[Attachment #2 (multipart/alternative)]
Nice. Your attached project gives an error in 6.0 but can be dropped
directly into https://squeak.js.org/etoys/#fullscreen or also via this link:
https://squeak.js.org/etoys/#fullscreen&document=https://lists.squeakfoundation.org/ar \
chives/list/squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org/message/NQOO774VNWLYSXFE43B4IPKKLYRFYGQF/attachment/4/mazeconstructor.021.pr
(if that's too long try https://tinyurl.com/m77dmf2z )
Vanessa
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 11:57 AM karl ramberg <karlramberg@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have used Etoys quite a lot. I have also contributed fixes and
> enhancements to Etoys through the years. I find Etoys quite nice for
> smaller ideas and projects. It is very versatile and powerful. An example
> in attachment.
>
> Its drawbacks is that it doesn't scale very well; more than 5 players and
> 10 scripts gets quite hard to manage. And it has almost exponential growth
> in complexity.
> It is also an instance based system that makes it immediate and lively,
> but also fragile. If you move players, start scripts wrong or delete
> something, it falls apart and it is hard to fix.
>
> Best,
> Karl
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 8:14 PM Jecel Assumpcao Jr <jecel@merlintec.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Ralph Boland wrote on Wed, 30 Aug 2023 08:57:37 -0600
> >
> > > Apologies if this has been said before; I haven't read all of the
> > comments.
> > > Still, this bears repeating.
> > > Squeak is a software development system.
> > > EToys is an application that uses Squeak.
> >
> > This is the current end goal, but does not reflect the history.
> >
> > Alan Kay's group at Apple wanted to build Etoys as a successor to
> > Vivarium. One requirement was that it had to run on any computers a
> > school might have. The obvious choice at the time was to build it on top
> > of Java, but in the 1995/1996 timeframe that emerging software ecosystem
> > was not really up to the task.
> >
> > The group was dismayed that the "state of the art" was so primitive
> > compared to their own mid 1980s Apple Smalltalk. It seemed a better use
> > of their time to use that as the starting point instead and clean it up
> > to be usable in the mid 1990s (go from 16 to 32 bits, add networking,
> > add color and sound).
> >
> > So the project had a major detour that got us the nice Squeak (and
> > eventually Cuis and Pharo) we have today, but when they went back to
> > working on Etoys itself there was no effort to structure it as an
> > application.
> >
> > When the technology was ready, deployment turned out to be the problem.
> > Except for rare schools working with Alan's group (who had moved from
> > Apple to Disney and his own VPRI) and a few independent efforts, most
> > schools had a limited list of what they allowed on their computers and
> > Squeak+Etoys wasn't on it.
> >
> > Schools were allowing web browser plugins such as Java and Flash, so a
> > new effort was made to deploy Squeak as such a plugin. Unfortunately it
> > turned out that schools also had a limited list of allowed plugins and
> > this turned out to be a dead end.
> >
> > The last gasp was the One Laptop Per Child project, which required the
> > re-licensing of Squeak to make the open source purists participating in
> > that project happy. The teacher's attention was on Scratch, Etoy's
> > younger sibling. But in many schools the students themselves found Etoys
> > by just poking around and did interesting things with it, though
> > probably not as much as they might have with some actual help.
> >
> > Since then the Etoys creators have moved on to other things and it
> > hasn't been touched other than a few personal and heroic efforts.
> >
> > -- Jecel
> >
> > p.s.: I do mostly use older images for my work, including the little bit
> > of Etoys I use. Having just checked, the lastest image I used Etoys in
> > was 6.0alpha
> >
> >
>
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr"><div>Nice. Your attached project gives an error in 6.0 but can be \
dropped directly into <a \
href="https://squeak.js.org/etoys/#fullscreen">https://squeak.js.org/etoys/#fullscreen</a> \
or also via this link:</div><div><br></div><div><a \
href="https://squeak.js.org/etoys/#fullscreen&document=https://lists.squeakfoundat \
ion.org/archives/list/squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org/message/NQOO774VNWLYSXFE43 \
B4IPKKLYRFYGQF/attachment/4/mazeconstructor.021.pr">https://squeak.js.org/etoys/#fulls \
creen&document=https://lists.squeakfoundation.org/archives/list/squeak-dev@lists.s \
queakfoundation.org/message/NQOO774VNWLYSXFE43B4IPKKLYRFYGQF/attachment/4/mazeconstructor.021.pr</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>(if \
that's too long try <a \
href="https://tinyurl.com/m77dmf2z">https://tinyurl.com/m77dmf2z</a> \
)</div><div><br></div><div>Vanessa</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 11:57 AM karl ramberg <<a \
href="mailto:karlramberg@gmail.com">karlramberg@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I \
have used Etoys quite a lot. I have also contributed fixes and enhancements to Etoys \
through the years. I find Etoys quite nice for smaller ideas and projects. It is very \
versatile and powerful. An example in attachment.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Its \
drawbacks is that it doesn't scale very well; more than 5 players and 10 scripts \
gets quite hard to manage. And it has almost exponential growth in \
complexity.</div><div>It is also an instance based system that makes it immediate and \
lively, but also fragile. If you move players, start scripts wrong or delete \
something, it falls apart and it is hard to fix. \
<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Karl</div><div><br></div></div><br><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at \
8:14 PM Jecel Assumpcao Jr <<a href="mailto:jecel@merlintec.com" \
target="_blank">jecel@merlintec.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Ralph Boland wrote on Wed, 30 Aug 2023 08:57:37 \
-0600<br> <br>
> Apologies if this has been said before; I haven't read all of the \
comments.<br> > Still, this bears repeating.<br>
> Squeak is a software development system.<br>
> EToys is an application that uses Squeak.<br>
<br>
This is the current end goal, but does not reflect the history.<br>
<br>
Alan Kay's group at Apple wanted to build Etoys as a successor to<br>
Vivarium. One requirement was that it had to run on any computers a<br>
school might have. The obvious choice at the time was to build it on top<br>
of Java, but in the 1995/1996 timeframe that emerging software ecosystem<br>
was not really up to the task.<br>
<br>
The group was dismayed that the "state of the art" was so primitive<br>
compared to their own mid 1980s Apple Smalltalk. It seemed a better use<br>
of their time to use that as the starting point instead and clean it up<br>
to be usable in the mid 1990s (go from 16 to 32 bits, add networking,<br>
add color and sound).<br>
<br>
So the project had a major detour that got us the nice Squeak (and<br>
eventually Cuis and Pharo) we have today, but when they went back to<br>
working on Etoys itself there was no effort to structure it as an<br>
application.<br>
<br>
When the technology was ready, deployment turned out to be the problem.<br>
Except for rare schools working with Alan's group (who had moved from<br>
Apple to Disney and his own VPRI) and a few independent efforts, most<br>
schools had a limited list of what they allowed on their computers and<br>
Squeak+Etoys wasn't on it.<br>
<br>
Schools were allowing web browser plugins such as Java and Flash, so a<br>
new effort was made to deploy Squeak as such a plugin. Unfortunately it<br>
turned out that schools also had a limited list of allowed plugins and<br>
this turned out to be a dead end.<br>
<br>
The last gasp was the One Laptop Per Child project, which required the<br>
re-licensing of Squeak to make the open source purists participating in<br>
that project happy. The teacher's attention was on Scratch, Etoy's<br>
younger sibling. But in many schools the students themselves found Etoys<br>
by just poking around and did interesting things with it, though<br>
probably not as much as they might have with some actual help.<br>
<br>
Since then the Etoys creators have moved on to other things and it<br>
hasn't been touched other than a few personal and heroic efforts.<br>
<br>
-- Jecel<br>
<br>
p.s.: I do mostly use older images for my work, including the little bit<br>
of Etoys I use. Having just checked, the lastest image I used Etoys in<br>
was 6.0alpha<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
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