[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread] List: squeak-dev Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] =?utf-8?q?All-In-One_distribution_=28was=3A_Changing?= From: John Pfersich <smalltalker2 () mac ! com> Date: 2018-05-31 8:18:25 Message-ID: f174576c-7181-4c3d-b737-79f52dad68cb () me ! com [Download RAW message or body] [Attachment #2 (multipart/alternative)] Well, at least on Mac OS, the fact that Squeak doesn't work right off the bat is \ probably a turnoff for most users, especially since there don't seem to be any \ instructions on what to after you get this (I just tested this): I mean, it's a 32 bit app (running on Mac OS 10.13.4) and you can't save the image. \ What good is it? It's worse than non-functional. It seems to me that a lot of people \ would just give up on it. I'm still running 4.6 because at least it works on Mac OS \ without having to screw around, trying to figure out what does work. And doing things \ not related to programming is what the small Squeak community obviously wants \ beginners to do. If Squeak was a so hard to use back in 2000, I would have abandoned \ it immediately. On May 31, 2018, at 12:24 AM, "H. Hirzel" <hannes.hirzel@gmail.com> wrote: On 5/31/18, John Pfersich <smalltalker2@mac.com> wrote: I think the AIO causes more problems than it's worth. Does it work in Windows better than it does in Mac OS and Linux? I hope so, because it only works for rank beginners on the latter platforms. This is the question of the target user group. As Bert mentions Etoys-to-go on a pen drive (use your environment in school, e.g. Mac and at home Windows-PC) _is_ an issue. But as I just write in the previous mail probably it has to be put on the back-burner at the moment .... The user group of "beginners" is also the one which is the largest group of users! /————————————————————/ Encrypted email at jgpfersich@protonmail.com Web: http://www.objectnets.net and http://www.objectnets.org On May 30, 2018, at 07:59, Tobias Pape <Das.Linux@gmx.de> wrote: HI On 30.05.2018, at 15:30, H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel@gmail.com> wrote: Chris Muller Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:14 AM AIO provides a compact example file of everything needed to deploy an application on each of the top platforms. For no more than its instructional value, it is something worth keeping, IMO. The AIO _is_ the application. Good to run off a pen drive as well in a platform independent way. It does not need to be built regularily. Just for the release is fine. But the AIO is impractical. Eg, for OSX we _must_ force users now to _move_ the .app bundle before starting it the first time, else things just do not work. The only viable Way I see for that is building read-only disk images, so that people must move the app. However, nobody else can use DMGs, so we have two things already: - ZIP - DMG And now that snaps (https://snapcraft.io/) enter the stage for linux, we have at least to _consider_ that, too. And when signing comes into play, this is getting too complex for me. I completely the understand the desirability of a portable app, but given we;re not a near-stateless browser and given our "workforce", I don't see this happen reliably in the forthcoming time. Best regards -Tobias On 5/30/18, David T. Lewis <lewis@mail.msen.com> wrote: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 07:22:28AM +0200, Tobias Pape wrote: On 30.05.2018, at 01:40, Edgar De Cleene <edgardec2005@gmail.com> wrote: On 29 May 2018, at 15:42, karl ramberg <karlramberg@gmail.com> wrote: Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a priority. It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org This scared beginners All in one should have the most stable and recent Let's face it: the All-in-ones are dead. Apple makes it harder than ever and for linux we should have start building platform packages long ago. This topic deserves a new subject line, and it would be great to get some more input regarding who prefers using the All-In-One distribution for regular use, versus other approaches for organizing their image and VM. My personal view is that the All-In-One is a valuable enhancement to the basic image and VM downloads. I do not think that it is practical to maintain it as the primary release artifact, but I do think that we should provide it, as best we can, in addition to the primary image and VM release downloads. Dave [Attachment #5 (multipart/related)] [Attachment #7 (unknown)] <html><body><div><div style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: \ SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: \ normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: \ auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; \ text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \ start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \ 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none; float: none; display: inline !important;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \ white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \ background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline \ !important;">Well, at least on Mac OS, the fact that Squeak doesn't work right off \ the bat is probably a turnoff for most users, especially since there don't seem to be \ any instructions on what to after you get this (I just tested this):</span><br \ style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', \ Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: \ normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: \ 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \ start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \ 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none;"></div><div style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; \ text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; \ text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \ start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \ 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none; float: none; display: inline !important;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \ white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \ background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline \ !important;"><br data-mce-bogus="1"></span></div><div style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \ text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: \ #ffffff; text-decoration: none;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: \ #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: \ 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \ text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: \ #ffffff; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; \ font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; \ font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: \ normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: \ normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; \ text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \ start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \ 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none; float: none; display: inline !important;"><img \ src="cid:718feaae-f5a0-4185-846f-a6ae6b847425@icloud.com" \ class="_auto-scale " alt="Screenshot 2018-05-31 00.38.19-2.png" title="Screenshot \ 2018-05-31 00.38.19-2.png" style="margin: 10px 10px 10px 0px;" \ data-inline-image="true" data-mce-style="margin: 10px 10px 10px \ 0px;"></span></div><div style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: \ SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: \ normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: \ auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; \ text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \ start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \ 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none; float: none; display: inline !important;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \ white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \ background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline \ !important;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: \ SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: \ normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: \ auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; \ display: inline !important; float: none;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \ text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: \ #ffffff; text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; float: none;">I mean, \ it's a 32 bit app (running on Mac OS 10.13.4) and you can't save the image. What good \ is it? It's worse than non-functional. It seems to me that a lot of people would just \ give up on it. I'm still running 4.6 because at least it works on Mac OS without \ having to screw around, trying to figure out what does work. And doing things not \ related to programming is what the small Squeak community obviously wants beginners \ to do. If Squeak was a so hard to use back in 2000, I would have abandoned it \ immediately.</span></span></div><div style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; \ font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; \ font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: \ normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \ white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; \ text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \ start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \ 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none; float: none; display: inline !important;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; \ white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \ background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline \ !important;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: \ SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: \ normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: \ auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; \ display: inline !important; float: none;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \ text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: \ #ffffff; text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br \ data-mce-bogus="1"></span></span></div><div style="caret-color: #000000; color: \ #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: \ 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \ text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: \ #ffffff; text-decoration: none;" data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: \ #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: \ 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \ text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: \ #ffffff; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; \ font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; \ font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: \ normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: \ normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; \ text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: \ start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: \ 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: \ none; float: none; display: inline !important;"><span style="caret-color: #000000; \ color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; \ font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; \ letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; \ text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; \ -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: \ #ffffff; text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; float: none;" \ data-mce-style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: SFNSText, \ 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; \ font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 300; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; \ text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; \ widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; \ -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; \ display: inline !important; float: none;"><br \ ["Screenshot 2018-05-31 00.38.19-2.png" (Screenshot 2018-05-31 00.38.19-2.png)] PNG IHDR ! iCCPDisplay HǭgTS9'Лt k(t@! bCepǂQp,X 6\ ]]:zs ԛ\TjI VjZ:.W x> W*VZ|A L~/ 9 t29 & r ,5- F8w #s{!K Q\Y6 yr &