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List: sas-l
Subject: Re: FW: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote server and
From: Roger DeAngelis <rogerjdeangelis () GMAIL ! COM>
Date: 2014-01-27 21:13:20
Message-ID: CAOUdXL_BnA56Kt1KHC=FRYeihkLUfErM4jdeF2rCYGMpwAv_cA () mail ! gmail ! com
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Hi Toby,
Hi All
Toby, I agree with you. But I feel there is a place for EG but not for
programmers. SAS would have to strip out the Process and Project stuff and
just have some restricted menu driven aplications, like proc means. Also I
feel SAS should limit the number of observations for non-programmers and
make it known up front. A beginner should only spend a month or two with EG
and then perhaps SAS could issue this suggestion. 'You have used EG for
over two months, you may want to consider using the full
programmers version'.
I do like products that introduce high school students and executives to
SAS/WPS. Grows the base.
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:13 PM, William W. Viergever <william@viergever.net
> wrote:
> maybe that's what "management" is for
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> William W. Viergever
> Viergever & Associates
> Health Data Analysis / Systems Design & Development
> 2920 Arden Way Suite N
> Sacramento, CA 95825
> william@viergever.net
> www.viergever.net
> (916) 483-8398
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SAS(r) Discussion [mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> James C. Whanger
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:10 PM
> To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: FW: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote server and
>
> It seems odd that SAS would create a GUI geared towards giving
> inexperienced analysts access to large amounts of data, but not provide a
> method to create automated constraints on queries.
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Alan Churchill <savian.net@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Some of the stuff I have been investigating over the years. I am
> > uncertain on the pre-processor side but I have done a lot of work on
> > the analysis after the fact.
> >
> > Currently, we do log analysis looking for extreme behavior in prod jobs.
> > They are the hammers. Adhoc is just a pain you have to watch for when
> > complaints hit the help desk but you can analyze prod jobs and find
> > inefficiencies.
> >
> > I have .net programs that rip the sas logs down, create excel files of
> > possible issues, and send them out as email attachments. We can spot a
> > lot of possible problems.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ------------------------------
> > From: James C. Whanger
> > Sent: 1/26/2014 4:41 PM
> >
> > To: Alan Churchill
> > Cc: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: FW: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote server
> > and
> >
> > Alan,
> >
> > I too agree in part. However, once someone is given access to the
> > massive data that can create the problem -- it still does not
> > eliminate the problem of someone trying to pull too much data at once.
> > I do not know if it is possible -- but creating 'illegal' code would
> > be a helpful solution. For example, if one could throw an error when
> > someone is trying to pull data without a reasonable WHERE or HAVING
> > statement combined with a log that suggests a solution. Or, if you could
> limit the number of variables, etc.
> >
> > Just an idea.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Alan Churchill <savian.net@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> >
> > > full desktop SAS
> > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> > > boundary 1a11c005c8ef494904f0e790c7
> > >
> > > --001a11c005c8ef494904f0e790c7
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > >
> > > James,
> > >
> > > I agree in part. When faced with my 43k issue, I suggested a 2 prong
> > > approach with training being a core part.
> > >
> > > EG allows us to control access into the large SAS servers. I prefer
> > > DMS myself because that is my world. However, for a very large SAS
> > > base, EG provides centralized control, good or bad.
> > >
> > > We have thousands of SAS programmer/analysts. We are not going to
> > > train everyone to the right level. It is a scale issue that is not
> > > easily solved by training only. We have to look at multi-pronged
> > > approaches including EG, centralized monitoring, query analysis, log
> analysis, etc.
> > >
> > > Not everyone faces similar constraints. Therefore I do not believe
> > > that a blanket statement on EG is applicable either for or against.
> > >
> > > Alan
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > From: James C. Whanger
> > > Sent: 1/26/2014 4:01 PM
> > > To: Alan Churchill
> > > Cc: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: FW: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote server
> > > and full desktop SAS Hello Alan,
> > >
> > > It appears that SAS is attempting to address a 'training' issue with
> > > a 'technological solution' which does not solve the actual problem. A
> > > lack of training and mentorship is a problem that cannot be solved
> > > technologically.
> > > EG does not solve managerial problems despite the claim that it will
> > > eliminate there existence. Also, your assumption that an educational
> > > credential is a substitute for proper training is a problem that EG
> > > contributes to more than it helps to solve.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Alan Churchill <savian.net@gmail.com
> > > > wrote> >> :
> > >
> > > > Enterprise does not necessarily mean more functionality to the end
> user.
> > > > Enterprise does mean better control/management of the enterprise. A
> > > > mainframe SAS implementation is enterprise class but it results in
> > > > less functionality for the end user.
> > > >
> > > > Some SAS code has to be managed otherwise the systems get beaten to
> > > death
> > > > because someone does not know what they are doing. When I saw a PhD
> > > > in
> > > St> >> at
> > > > write a query with 43,000 columns, I was shocked. He alone was
> > > > killing
> > > th> >> e
> > > > system. Obviously a bright guy but he had no idea what he was doing
> > > > to everyone else. That is where we need enterprise management and
> > > > EG is
> > > part
> > > > of
> > > > that mix for SAS.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, cross-platform means little to me if it does not reflect
> > > > the reality of where processing takes place. For example, if I am
> > > > working
> > > wit> >> h
> > > > client machines, C#/.NET is where I focus because almost every
> > > > computer
> > > i> >> n
> > > > corporate America is a Windows machine and .NET is the best
> > > > platform
> > > ther> >> e.
> > > > If I am working on a Unix server, I adjust as needed or have
> > > > someone
> > > else
> > > > code it in Python, Perl, whatever. Unix does not have to deal with
> > > > UI issues in corporate America. Unix is used for processing. Cell
> > > > phones also
> > > need > >> a
> > > > different approach (HTML5, CSS3, Obj-C, etc.).
> > > >
> > > > I do not use SAS for UI stuff because it does not do it. I do use
> > > > SAS
> > > for
> > > > processing data. Different tools for different needs.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I am confused on the GNU part. What difference does a GNU
> > > > license mean vis-Ã -vis the language? You apply licensing to
> > > > what you create
> > > using> >> C#.
> > > > The
> > > > language itself does not matter. SAS could release EG as GNU but
> > > > that is their decision to make. I can write something in a number
> > > > of languages
> > > an> >> d
> > > > opt not to share source. C#/.Net source code (lowest level) has
> > > > been available for years (look at Mono Project).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Alan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Alan Churchill
> > > > Savian, LLC
> > > > Colorado Springs
> > > >
> > > > O: 719-687-5954
> > > > C: 719-310-4870
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Roger DeAngelis [mailto:rogerjdeangelis@GMAIL.COM]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:32 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: FW: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote
> > > > server
> > > and
> > > > full desktop SAS
> > > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > I have heard the statement, we want programmers to 'funnel' all
> > > > their work trough enterprise guide. The IT guy actually used the
> > > > term
> > > 'funnel'.
> > > > Only PERL is available(unix only- using a pipe), mainly because
> > > > perl is part of the operating system and it is hard to limit
> > > > users?. The person in charge of authorizing new software did not
> > > > even know what R was.
> > > >
> > > > A lack of easy integration of EG with Java, C, R, Python and
> > > > Perl on both the desktop and server is a huge negative. EG seems
> > > > harder to integrate than base SAS,
> > > >
> > > > Usually the term enterprise means more functionality, it bothers
> > > > me
> > > th> >> at
> > > > SAS would sell an 'enterprise level product' where both client and
> > > server
> > > > XCMD can be turned off.
> > > >
> > > > In my career(Senior Stat/Senior Programmer) I have tried to
> > > > spend my time on products that have a good chance to survive ie
> > > >
> > > > These products are cross platform
> > > >
> > > > 1. Base SAS/WPS (other products like SAS Assist and FSCALC are
> > > > pretty
> > > > dead)
> > > > 2. R
> > > > 3. PERL (although Python/php are coming on strong).
> > > > 4. C (not C++)
> > > > 5. HTML/JAVASCRIPT/CSS (not SAS templates for the web)
> > > > 6. Process Designer/Data Architect/Process Analyst (Now in SAP,
> > > > I
> > > have
> > > > old copies) not SAS projects and SAS process flows.
> > > >
> > > > I experimented with Java, Groovy but the products above can be
> > > > picked up easily with the exception of the crazy structure of
> non-object C.
> > > >
> > > > I don't like .NET and C# because they are primarily windows only
> > > > and are not under a GNU licenses. EG is written in these and I
> > > > don't think SAS has
> > > to
> > > > make the source code available to the public, so it is had to
> > > > figure out exactly how it works or to get others to enhance basic
> functionality.
> > > >
> > > > Here is what I like on the desktop
> > > >
> > > > 1. Base SAS/WPS
> > > > 2. R
> > > > 3. PERL/Python
> > > > 4. Open Office
> > > > 5. ghostscript (can insert and append pdfs)
> > > > 6. PDF creator(be careful some downloads add crap to your desktop)
> > > > 7. BOXOFT pdf to powerpoint. Create SAS PDFs with a pdf 'proc
> > > template'
> > > > designed for powerpoint layout.
> > > > BOXOFT will copy the PDF slides to powerpoint.
> > > > 6. You need a 2003 version of powerpoint to get html web
> > > > powerpoint option. SAS can add slides.
> > > > 7. 7-zip
> > > > 8. Open Office (can edit pdfs)
> > > > 9. Filezilla
> > > > 10. Amaya for editing HTML
> > > > 11. Logitech MX310 mouse with fully programmable 5 buttons
> > > > (32/64bit)
> > > al> >> l
> > > > of the SAS function keys can be mapped.
> > > > You may have some trouble getting the drivers, but they are
> > > availabl> >> e.
> > > > I have them for 32/64.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 11:33 AM, James C. Whanger
> > > > <james.whanger@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Clint,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for the clarification. While I often hear people claim,
> > > > > as you do, that the GUI and Coding can be allies, I have yet to
> > > > > see convincing evidence of this. I have yet to come across a
> > > > > process for which time spent learning how to code it is not far
> > > > > more productive in terms of expanding the skills of the analyst
> > > > > as well as production capacity for the organization over the long
> > > > > run than time spent
> > > learnin> >> g
> > > > how to use the GUI.
> > > > >
> > > > > From my perspective, the biggest flaw with the SAS EG GUI is that
> > > > > SAS created a tool that is positioned at a level that does not
> > > > > lend itself easily to scalability. I personally think it was a
> > > > > strategic error that will fall by the wayside over time. It
> > > > > creates a tool that is not really for 'consumers' of the data --
> > > > > for whom flexible BI tools generated by SAS code would be far
> > > > > better -- but rather for 'non-coding' analysts who would greatly
> > > > > benefit from knowing how to code as would the organizations for
> which they work.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am open to an argument that provides evidence that utilizing
> > > > > both the GUI and Coding provides a synergistic outcome that
> > > > > results in more productivity or efficiency over time than does
> > > > > Coding alone -- but I am hard pressed to come up with it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Rickards, Clinton (GE Capital) <
> > > > > clinton.rickards@ge.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Copying SAS-L community...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Clint
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Rickards, Clinton (GE Capital)
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:05 PM
> > > > > > To: 'james.whanger@gmail.com'
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote
> > > > > > server and
> > > > > full
> > > > > > desktop SAS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James,
> > > > > > All good points. What I meant by typos being reduced is that
> > > > > > the syntax truly generated by EG is correct. For example,
> > > > > > commas are in the right places, procedure names and options are
> > > > > > spelled correctly, and semicolons are always included. What the
> > > > > > user enters is always
> > > > subject to error.
> > > > > > Easily fixing an issue is good but avoiding it is even better.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as program structure, we've both seen (and probably
> > > > > > created) far too much spaghetti code and other poorly written
> > > > > > programs in our day. The reasons are legion and no tool is going
> to prevent it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > EG and SAS DMS each have their uses and advantages. They can be
> > > > > > competitors or allies, depending on need or preference. I use
> > > > > > both
> > > > > because
> > > > > > they are both available to me and both functional (and
> > > > > > frustrating) for
> > > > > my
> > > > > > needs.
> > > > > > Clint Rickards, (SAS Platform Administrator (Sent via
> > > > > > Blackberry)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: James C. Whanger [mailto:james.whanger@gmail.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 05:00 PM
> > > > > > To: Rickards, Clinton (GE Capital)
> > > > > > Cc: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> <
> > > > > > SAS-L@listserv.uga.edu<mailto:SAS-L@listserv.uga.edu>>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote
> > > > > > server and
> > > > > full
> > > > > > desktop SAS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Rickards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As someone who has used both the point and click GUI in EG and
> > > > > > has utilized the code module method -- it has been my
> > > > > > experience that your argument that typos are reduced in the GUI
> > > > > > method is not accurate. This
> > > > > is
> > > > > > because WHERE, HAVING, IN, etc. statements in the GUI still
> > > > > > require
> > > > > typing.
> > > > > > And even where they do not -- it may require choosing a > or a
> > > > > > > =
> > > o> >> r
> > > > > > the like which is equally error prone for either method. Other
> > > > > > types of typos
> > > > > > -- of variable or table names will not run and thus can be
> > > > > > quickly debugged. The organization issue is also for easier to
> > > > > > maintain with code modules as with the GUI, one often ends up
> > > > > > with a massive spaghetti
> > > > > looking
> > > > > > mess that is far more difficult to open and deconstruct than is
> > > > > > a well organized set of code modules. Given an equal amount of
> > > > > > time and appropriate training on either GUI EG or Code EG --
> > > > > > someone who learns
> > > > > the
> > > > > > coding method will be able to solve far more complex problems
> > > > > > far more quickly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ability to organize projects within EG is a nice feature --
> > > > > > but the GUI is far more limiting than typically assumed by
> > > > > > those who promote its use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Rickards, Clinton (GE Capital)
> > > > > > < clinton.rickards@ge.com<mailto:clinton.rickards@ge.com>> wrote:
> > > > > > All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's been a long time since I posted on SAS-L but I thought I
> > > > > > would weigh-in on this topic. In our environment we have a mix
> > > > > > of PC-SAS, EG, Linux command line user, X-term users, and VNC
> > > > > > users, all connecting to a SAS Grid running on Linux.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Advantages of EG:
> > > > > > -GUI is easier for many users to develop large programs
> > > > > > -Essentially wizard based, which can help users less familiar
> > > > > > with a particular procedure -Easy to manage data and programs
> > > > > > stored on the host. Can easily see everything in one view on
> > > > > > the Process Flow and Project Tree -Easy-ish to build stored
> > > > > > processes -Since it is metadata aware, administrators can
> > > > > > manage what users can see and do -Can still drop into custom
> > > > > > written code if desired/needed -Can schedule (on windows) the
> execution of the project.
> > > > > > -Code that is generated is error free -Easy to add branches to
> > > > > > validate a main process (e.g. run a complicated query and then
> > > > > > do proc freq, SQL to interrogate the results). The
> > > > > branches
> > > > > > are easy to keep separate and prune off later.
> > > > > > -Integration with ODS in the various tasks and EG options -EG
> > > > > > puts less of a load on the host than using X windows variants.
> > > > > > Ditto for PC SAS with SAS/Connect to the host.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Disadvantages
> > > > > > -Experienced SAS programmers can usually write code faster than
> > > > > > they can use the GUI to develop the equivalent, but with a
> > > > > > higher incidence of
> > > > > typos
> > > > > > -Can use SAS/Connect asynchronously to run concurrent processes
> > > > > > from one PC SAS session. Not sure if one can do this with EG.
> > > > > > -SQL-centric for many things. Tends to add seemingly
> > > > > > unnecessary steps in the generated code.
> > > > > > -Not possible to do impact analysis, especially if a lot of
> > > > > > code is
> > > > > stored
> > > > > > in projects instead of on a central host/file share. (As an
> > > > > > aside, Data Integration Studio excels at impact analysis).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The biggest reason I see for people to stick with PC SAS (or
> > > > > > Display Manager in any of its flavors) is the code writing
> > > > > > speed, familiarity,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > plain inertia. I tend to use EG for big stuff and PC SAS for
> > > > > > small
> > > > stuff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Clint Rickards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Michael Davis [mailto:michael@bassettconsulting.com<mailto:
> > > > > > michael@bassettconsulting.com>]
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 1:13 PM
> > > > > > To: SAS-L
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote
> > > > > > server and
> > > > > full
> > > > > > desktop SAS
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Gady and other SAS-L Friends,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While I live in a part of the SAS universe where using
> > > > > > Enterprise Guide [EG] is not essential, I can think of all
> > > > > > sorts of situations where EG could be useful to SAS users
> > > > > > whose primary computing platform is Linux/Unix. Coding a
> > > > > > prototype for unfamiliar SAS procedures comes to mind. So a
> > > > > > blanket declaration against using EG is perhaps at best
> > > > > naive.
> > > > > > If one has a use for the IDE that EG provides, more power to
> them.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > use
> > > > > > Xwindows nearly every business day but would turn to EG if my
> > > > > > needs
> > > > > changed
> > > > > > in a way to make using it attractive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael
> > > > > > "Gady Kotler"
> > > > > > <gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM<mailto:gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM
> > > > > > > <mailto:gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM<mailto:gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.C
> > > > > > > OM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why do you insist on working with EG?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can work directly on your SAS UNIX/Linux system (with
> > > > > > > free X
> > > > > package)
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > get the full SAS unix environment integrated into your
> > > > > > > desktop Windows
> > > > > > PC.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gady
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Michael L. Davis
> > > > > > Ambler, PA
> > > > > > email: Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu<mailto:
> > > > > Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu
> > > > > > > <mailto:Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu<mailto:
> > > > > > Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu>>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > James C. Whanger
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > *James C. Whanger*
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > *James C. Whanger*
> > >
> > > --001a11c005c8ef494904f0e790c7
> > > Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > >
> > > <html><head><meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
> > > http-equiv="Cont> >> ent-Type"></head><body><div><div style="font-family:
> > > Calibri,sans-serif; > >> font-size: 11pt;">James,<br><br>I agree in part. When \
> > > faced with my 43k iss= ue, I suggested a 2 prong approach with training being a
> > > core part.<br><br>= EG allows us to control access into the large SAS
> > > servers. I prefer DMS mys= elf because that is my world. However, for
> > > a very large SAS base, EG provid= es centralized control, good or
> > > bad. <br><br>We have thousands of SAS progr= ammer/analysts. We are
> > > not going to train everyone to the right level. It i= s a scale issue
> > > that is not easily solved by training only. We have to look= at
> > > multi-pronged approaches including EG, centralized monitoring, query
> > > an= alysis, log analysis, etc.<br><br>Not everyone faces similar
> > > constraints.
> > > T> >> herefore I do not believe that a blanket statement on EG is
> > > applicable eith= er for or against.<br><br>Alan<br><br>Sent from my
> > > Windows Phone<br></div><= /div><hr><span style="font-family:
> > > Tahoma,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; fo> >> nt-weight: bold;">From: </span><span \
> > > style="font-family: Tahoma,sans-seri> >> f; font-size: 10pt;">James C. \
> > > Whanger</span><br><span style="font-family:= Tahoma,sans-serif; font-size: \
> > > 10pt;
> > > font-weight: bold;">Sent:
> > > </span><span> >> style="font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif; font-size: \
> > > 10pt;">1/26/2014 4:01 > >> PM</span><br><span style="font-family: \
> > > Tahoma,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt> >> ; font-weight: bold;">To: </span><span \
> > > style="font-family: Tahoma,sans-se> >> rif; font-size: 10pt;">Alan \
> > > Churchill</span><br><span style="font-family:= Tahoma,sans-serif; font-size: \
> > > 10pt;
> > > font-weight: bold;">Cc: </span><span s> >> tyle="font-family: \
> > > Tahoma,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> SAS-L@LISTSERV.UG= A.EDU \
> > > <http://a.edu/></span><br><span
> style="font-family:
> > > Tahoma,sans-serif;
> > > font-size: 1> >> 0pt; font-weight: bold;">Subject: </span><span \
> > > style="font-family: Tahoma> >> ,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Re: FW: \
> > > Integration of SAS EG local server, = EG remote server and full desktop
> > > SAS</span><br><br></body></html><div
> > > dir> >> ="ltr">Hello Alan,<div><br></div><div>It appears that SAS is
> > > attempting t= o address a 'training' issue with a
> > > 'technological solution'= ; which does not solve the actual
> > > problem. A lack of training and mentorshi= p is a problem that cannot
> > > be solved technologically. EG does not sol= ve managerial
> > > problems despite the claim that it will eliminate there exist= ence.
> > > Also, your assumption that an educational credential is a
> > > subst= itute for proper training is a problem that EG contributes to
> > > more than it = helps to solve.</div>
> > > <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>James</div></div><
> > > div
> > > cl> >> ass="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan
> > > 26, 2014= at 4:56 PM, Alan Churchill <span dir="ltr"><<a
> > > href="mailto:
> > > savian.> >> net@gmail.com" target="_blank">savian.net@gmail.com</a>></span>
> > > wrote:> >> <br>
> > > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
> > > .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Enterprise does
> > > not necessarily mean more fu= nctionality to the end user.<br>
> > > Enterprise does mean better control/management of the enterprise.
> > > A<br> mainframe SAS implementation is enterprise class but it results
> > > in less<br> functionality for the end user.<br> <br> Some SAS code
> > > has to be managed otherwise the systems get beaten to death<b> >> r>
> > > because someone does not know what they are doing. When I saw a PhD
> > > in Stat= <br> write a query with 43,000 columns, I was shocked. He
> > > alone was killing the<> >> br>
> > > system. Obviously a bright guy but he had no idea what he was doing
> > > to<br> everyone else. That is where we need enterprise management and
> > > EG is part o= f<br> that mix for SAS.<br> <br> Finally,
> > > cross-platform means little to me if it does not reflect the<br>
> > > reality of where processing takes place. For example, if I am working
> > > with<> >> br>
> > > client machines, C#/.NET is where I focus because almost every
> > > computer in<> >> br>
> > > corporate America is a Windows machine and .NET is the best platform
> > > there.= <br> If I am working on a Unix server, I adjust as needed or
> > > have someone else<b> >> r>
> > > code it in Python, Perl, whatever. Unix does not have to deal with UI
> > > issue= s<br> in corporate America. Unix is used for processing. Cell
> > > phones also need a<> >> br>
> > > different approach (HTML5, CSS3, Obj-C, etc.).<br> <br> I do not use
> > > SAS for UI stuff because it does not do it. I do use SAS for<b> >> r>
> > > processing data. Different tools for different needs.<br> <br> Also,
> > > I am confused on the GNU part. What difference does a GNU license
> > > mea= n<br> vis-Ã -vis the language? You apply licensing to what
> > > you create using C= #. The<br> language itself does not matter. SAS
> > > could release EG as GNU but that is<br> >> >
> > > their decision to make. I can write something in a number of
> > > languages and<> >> br>
> > > opt not to share source. C#/.Net source code (lowest level) has
> > > been<br> available for years (look at Mono Project).<br> <div
> > > class="im HOEnZb"><br> Thanks,<br> <br> Alan<br> <br> <br> Alan
> > > Churchill<br> Savian, LLC<br> Colorado Springs<br> <br>
> > > O: <a href="tel:719-687-5954" value="+17196875954">719-687-5954
> > > </a><br>
> > > C: <a href="tel:719-310-4870" value="+17193104870">719-310-4870
> > > </a><br>
> > > -----Original Message-----<br>
> > > </div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">From: Roger DeAngelis
> > > [mailto= :<a
> > > href="mailto:rogerjdeangelis@GMAIL.COM">rogerjdeangelis@GMAIL.COM
> > > </a>> >> ]<br>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 11:32 AM<br>
> > > Subject: Re: FW: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote server
> > > and<b> >> r>
> > > full desktop SAS<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Hi All,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > I have heard the statement, we want programmers to
> > > 'funnel= ' all their<br> work trough enterprise guide. The IT
> > > guy actually used the term 'funnel= '.<br> Only PERL is
> > > available(unix only- using a pipe), mainly because perl is par= t<br>
> > > of the operating system and it is hard to limit users?. The person in
> > > charg= e<br> of authorizing new software did not even know what R
> > > was.<br> <br>
> > > A lack of easy integration of EG with Java, C, R, Python
> > > and P= erl on both<br> the desktop and server is a huge negative. EG
> > > seems harder to integrate tha= n<br> base SAS,<br> <br>
> > > Usually the term enterprise means more functionality, it
> > > bothe= rs me that<br> SAS would sell an 'enterprise level
> > > product' where both client and = server<br> XCMD can be turned
> > > off.<br> <br>
> > > In my career(Senior Stat/Senior Programmer) I have tried
> > > to sp= end my time<br> on products that have a good chance to survive
> > > ie<br> <br> These products are cross platform<br> <br>
> > > 1. Base SAS/WPS (other products like SAS Assist and
> > > FSCALC are= pretty<br> dead)<br>
> > > 2. R<br>
> > > 3. PERL (although Python/php are coming on strong).<br>
> > > 4. C (not C++)<br>
> > > 5. HTML/JAVASCRIPT/CSS (not SAS templates for the
> > > web)<br>
> > > 6. Process Designer/Data Architect/Process Analyst (Now
> > > in SAP= , I have<br> old copies) not SAS projects and SAS process
> > > flows.<br> <br> I experimented with Java, Groovy but the products
> > > above can be picked up<br> >> >
> > > easily with the exception of the crazy structure of non-object C.<br>
> > > <br> I don't like .NET and C# because they are primarily windows
> > > only and ar= e not<br> under a GNU licenses. EG is written in these
> > > and I don't think SAS has = to<br> make the source code available
> > > to the public, so it is had to figure out<br> >> >
> > > exactly how it works or to get others to enhance basic
> > > functionality.<br> <br> Here is what I like on the desktop<br> <br>
> > > 1. Base SAS/WPS<br>
> > > 2. R<br>
> > > 3. PERL/Python<br>
> > > 4. Open Office<br>
> > > 5. ghostscript (can insert and append pdfs)<br>
> > > 6. PDF creator(be careful some downloads add crap to your
> > > desktop)<b> >> r>
> > > 7. BOXOFT pdf to powerpoint. Create SAS PDFs with a pdf
> > > 'proc te= mplate'<br> designed for powerpoint layout.<br>
> > > BOXOFT will copy the PDF slides to
> > > powerpoint.<br>
> > > 6. You need a 2003 version of powerpoint to get html web
> > > powerpoint<> >> br>
> > > option. SAS can add slides.<br>
> > > 7. 7-zip<br>
> > > 8. Open Office (can edit pdfs)<br>
> > > 9. Filezilla<br>
> > > 10. Amaya for editing HTML<br>
> > > 11. Logitech MX310 mouse with fully programmable 5 buttons
> > > (32/64bit)= all<br> of the SAS function keys can be mapped.<br>
> > > You may have some trouble getting the drivers,
> > > but they= are available.<br> I have them for 32/64.<br> <br> <br>
> > > <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 11:33 AM, James
> > > C. Whanger<br> <<a
> > > href="mailto:james.whanger@gmail.com">james.whanger@gmail.com
> > > </a>&> >> gt;wrote:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > > Hello Clint,<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Thank you for the clarification. While I often hear people
> > > claim, as<b> >> r>
> > > > you do, that the GUI and Coding can be allies, I have yet to
> > > see<br> > convincing evidence of this. I have yet to come across a
> > > process for<b> >> r>
> > > > which time spent learning how to code it is not far more
> > > productive in= <br> > terms of expanding the skills of the analyst
> > > as well as production<br> > capacity for the organization over the
> > > long run than time spent learni= ng<br> how to use the GUI.<br>
> > > ><br> > From my perspective, the biggest flaw with the SAS EG
> > > GUI is that SAS<> >> br>
> > > > created a tool that is positioned at a level that does not lend
> > > itself= <br> > easily to scalability. I personally think it was a
> > > strategic error<br> > that will fall by the wayside over time. It
> > > creates a tool that is not= <br> > really for 'consumers'
> > > of the data -- for whom flexible BI too= ls<br> > generated by SAS
> > > code would be far better -- but rather for<br> >
> > > 'non-coding' analysts who would greatly benefit from knowing
> > > h= ow to<br> > code as would the organizations for which they
> > > work.<br> ><br> > I am open to an argument that provides
> > > evidence that utilizing both<br> >> >
> > > > the GUI and Coding provides a synergistic outcome that results
> > > in more= <br> > productivity or efficiency over time than does
> > > Coding alone -- but I<b> >> r>
> > > > am hard pressed to come up with it.<br> ><br> > Best,<br>
> > > ><br> > James<br> ><br> ><br> > On Fri, Jan 24, 2014
> > > at 1:20 PM, Rickards, Clinton (GE Capital) <<b> >> r>
> > > > <a
> > > href="mailto:clinton.rickards@ge.com">clinton.rickards@ge.com
> > > </a>> >> > wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > > All,<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Copying SAS-L community...<br> > ><br> > >
> > > Clint<br> > ><br> > > From: Rickards, Clinton (GE
> > > Capital)<br> > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:05 PM<br>
> > > > > To: '<a href="mailto:james.whanger@gmail.com
> > > ">james.whanger> >> @gmail.com</a>'<br>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Integration of SAS EG local server, EG remote
> > > server= <br> > > and<br> > full<br> > > desktop
> > > SAS<br> > ><br> > > James,<br> > > All good points.
> > > What I meant by typos being reduced is that the<> >> br>
> > > > > syntax truly generated by EG is correct. For example,
> > > commas are = in<br> > > the right places, procedure names and
> > > options are spelled correct= ly,<br> > > and semicolons are
> > > always included. What the user enters is alway= s<br> subject to
> > > error.<br> > > Easily fixing an issue is good but avoiding it
> > > is even better.<br> >> >
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > As far as program structure, we've both seen (and
> > > probably cr= eated)<br> > > far too much spaghetti code and
> > > other poorly written programs in = our<br> > > day. The reasons
> > > are legion and no tool is going to prevent it.<b> >> r>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > EG and SAS DMS each have their uses and advantages. They
> > > can be<b> >> r>
> > > > > competitors or allies, depending on need or preference. I
> > > use bot= h<br> > because<br> > > they are both available to
> > > me and both functional (and frustratin= g)<br> > > for<br> >
> > > my<br> > > needs.<br> > > Clint Rickards, (SAS Platform
> > > Administrator (Sent via Blackberry)= <br> > ><br> > >
> > > From: James C. Whanger [mailto:<a href="mailto:
> > > james.whanger@gm> >> ail.com">james.whanger@gmail.com</a>]<br>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 05:00 PM<br> > > To:
> > > Rickards, Clinton (GE Capital)<br> > > Cc: <a
> > > href="mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > ">SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.> >> EDU</a><mailto:<a \
> > > href="mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ">SAS-L@LISTSERV.> >> UGA.EDU \
> > > <http://uga.edu/></a>> <<br> > > <a \
> > > href="mailto:SAS-L@listserv.uga.edu"> SAS-L@listserv.uga.edu<> >> \
> > > /a><mailto:<a href="mailto:SAS-L@listserv.uga.edu ">SAS-L@listserv.uga.> >> \
> > > edu</a>>><br> > > Subject: Re: Integration of SAS EG local server, \
> > > EG remote server= <br> > > and<br> > full<br> > > desktop
> > > SAS<br> > ><br> > > Hello Rickards,<br> > ><br>
> > > > > As someone who has used both the point and click GUI in EG
> > > and ha= s<br> > > utilized the code module method -- it has
> > > been my experience that= <br> > > your argument that typos are
> > > reduced in the GUI method is not<br> > > accurate. This<br>
> > > > is<br> > > because WHERE, HAVING, IN, etc. statements in
> > > the GUI still requi= re<br> > typing.<br> > > And even where
> > > they do not -- it may require choosing a > or a= >= or<br>
> > > > > the like which is equally error prone for either method.
> > > Other ty= pes<br> > > of typos<br> > > -- of variable or
> > > table names will not run and thus can be quickl= y<br> > >
> > > debugged. The organization issue is also for easier to maintain w> >> ith<br> \
> > > > > code modules as with the GUI, one often ends up with a massive<br> >> \
> > > > > > spaghetti<br>
> > > > looking<br>
> > > > > mess that is far more difficult to open and deconstruct
> > > than is a= <br> > > well organized set of code modules. Given
> > > an equal amount of time= <br> > > and appropriate training on
> > > either GUI EG or Code EG -- someone w= ho<br> > > learns<br>
> > > > the<br> > > coding method will be able to solve far more
> > > complex problems far= <br> > > more quickly.<br> > ><br>
> > > > > The ability to organize projects within EG is a nice
> > > feature -- b= ut<br> > > the GUI is far more limiting than
> > > typically assumed by those who<> >> br>
> > > > > promote its use.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Best,<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > James<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Rickards, Clinton (GE
> > > Capital) &= lt;<br> > > <a
> > > href="mailto:clinton.rickards@ge.com">
> > > clinton.rickards@ge.co> >> m</a><mailto:<a \
> > > href="mailto:clinton.rickards@ge.com ">clinton.rickards> >> @ge.com</a>>> \
> > > wrote:<br> > > All,<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > It's been a long time since I posted on SAS-L but I
> > > thought I= would<br> > > weigh-in on this topic. In our
> > > environment we have a mix of PC-SA= S,<br> > > EG, Linux
> > > command line user, X-term users, and VNC users, all<br> > >
> > > connecting to a SAS Grid running on Linux.<br> > ><br> >
> > > > Advantages of EG:<br> > > -GUI is easier for many users to
> > > develop large programs -Essentia= lly<br> > > wizard based,
> > > which can help users less familiar with a particula= r<br> > >
> > > procedure -Easy to manage data and programs stored on the host.
> > > C> >> an<br>
> > > > > easily see everything in one view on the Process Flow and
> > > Project= <br> > > Tree -Easy-ish to build stored processes
> > > -Since it is metadata<br> >> >
> > > > > aware, administrators can manage what users can see and do
> > > -Can<b> >> r>
> > > > > still drop into custom written code if desired/needed -Can
> > > schedu= le<br> > > (on windows) the execution of the
> > > project.<br> > > -Code that is generated is error free -Easy to
> > > add branches to<br> >> >
> > > > > validate a main process (e.g. run a complicated query and
> > > then do= <br> > > proc freq, SQL to interrogate the results).
> > > The<br> > branches<br> > > are easy to keep separate and
> > > prune off later.<br> > > -Integration with ODS in the various
> > > tasks and EG options -EG put= s<br> > > less of a load on the
> > > host than using X windows variants. Ditto f= or<br> > > PC SAS
> > > with SAS/Connect to the host.<br> > ><br> > >
> > > Disadvantages<br> > > -Experienced SAS programmers can usually
> > > write code faster than t= hey<br> > > can use the GUI to
> > > develop the equivalent, but with a higher<br> > > incidence
> > > of<br> > typos<br> > > -Can use SAS/Connect asynchronously
> > > to run concurrent processes f= rom<br> > > one PC SAS session.
> > > Not sure if one can do this with EG.<br> > > -SQL-centric for
> > > many things. Tends to add seemingly unnecessary<> >> br>
> > > > > steps in the generated code.<br> > > -Not possible to
> > > do impact analysis, especially if a lot of code = is<br> >
> > > stored<br> > > in projects instead of on a central host/file
> > > share. (As an aside= ,<br> > > Data Integration Studio excels
> > > at impact analysis).<br> > ><br> > > The biggest reason I
> > > see for people to stick with PC SAS (or Disp= lay<br> > >
> > > Manager in any of its flavors) is the code writing speed,<br> >
> > > > familiarity,<br> > and<br> > > plain inertia. I tend to
> > > use EG for big stuff and PC SAS for smal= l<br> stuff.<br> >
> > > ><br> > > Clint Rickards<br> > ><br> > > From:
> > > Michael Davis [mailto:<a href="mailto:
> > > michael@bassettcons> >> \
> > > ulting.com">michael@bassettconsulting.com</a><mailto:<br> > > <a \
> > > href="mailto:michael@bassettconsulting.com ">michael@bassettc> >> \
> > > onsulting.com</a>>]<br> > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 1:13 \
> > > PM<br> > > To: SAS-L<br> > > Subject: Re: Integration of SAS EG \
> > > local server, EG remote server= <br> > > and<br> > full<br> > >
> > > desktop SAS<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > Hello Gady and
> > > other SAS-L Friends,<br> > ><br> > > While I live in a
> > > part of the SAS universe where using Enterprise= <br> > > Guide
> > > [EG] is not essential, I can think of all sorts of si> >> tuations<br> > \
> > > > where EG could be useful to SAS users whose primary computing<br> > \
> > > > platform is Linux/Unix. Coding a prototype for unfamiliar S= AS<br> > \
> > > > procedures comes to mind. So a blanket declaration ag= ainst using<br> \
> > > > > EG is perhaps at best<br> > naive.<br> > > If one
> > > has a use for the IDE that EG provides, more power t= o them.<br>
> > > > > I<br> > use<br> > > Xwindows nearly every business
> > > day but would turn to EG if my nee= ds<br> > changed<br> > >
> > > in a way to make using it attractive.<br> > ><br> > >
> > > Best wishes,<br> > ><br> > > Michael<br> > >
> > > "Gady Kotler"<br> > > <<a
> > > href="mailto:gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM
> > > ">gadykotler@BIXFOR> >> SAS.COM <http://sas.com/></a><mailto:<a \
> > > href="mailto:
> gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM
> > > ">gadykotle> >> r@BIXFORSAS.COM</a><br>
> > > > > ><mailto:<a href="mailto:gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM
> > > ">gadyko> >> tler@BIXFORSAS.COM</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:
> > > gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM> >> ">gadykotler@BIXFORSAS.COM</a>>>><br>
> > > > > wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > > Why do you insist on working with EG?<br> > >
> > > ><br> > > > You can work directly on your SAS UNIX/Linux
> > > system (with fr= ee X<br> > package)<br> > > > and<br>
> > > > > > get the full SAS unix environment integrated into your
> > > deskt= op<br> > > > Windows<br> > > PC.<br> > >
> > > ><br> > > > Gady<br> > > ><br> > ><br>
> > > > ><br> > > --<br> > > Michael L. Davis<br> >
> > > > Ambler, PA<br> > > email: <a
> > > href="mailto:Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu
> > > ">Michael.D> >> avis@alumni.duke.edu</a><mailto:<br>
> > > > <a href="mailto:Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu
> > > ">Michael.Davis@alumni.> >> duke.edu</a><br>
> > > > > ><mailto:<a
> > > href="mailto:Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu
> > > ">M> >> ichael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu</a><mailto:<br>
> > > > > <a href="mailto:Michael.Davis@alumni.duke.edu
> > > ">Michael.Davis@al> >> umni.duke.edu</a>>><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > --<br>
> > > > > James C. Whanger<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > --<br>
> > > > *James C. Whanger*<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br
> > > clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>= <div dir="ltr"><i
> > > style="color:rgb(102,102,102)">James C.
> > > Whanger</i><d> >> iv><font
> > > color="#666666"><i><br></i></font></div><div><div><br></div><div> >> ><br>
> > > </div></div></div>
> > > </div>
> > >
> > > --001a11c005c8ef494904f0e790c7--
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *James C. Whanger*
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> *James C. Whanger*
>
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