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List: qubes-devel
Subject: Re: [qubes-devel] Re: [Xen-devel] Critique of the Xen Security Process
From: Richard H <osmailings () gmail ! com>
Date: 2015-11-10 1:21:19
Message-ID: CACoZp2qVEn_TCbwa=kqLKm=E4tGkwcsRj2QkGHgaB33PoCCVUw () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 5:00 PM, chris <tknchris@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1... so many great points here that ive thought many times its almost as
> if i could have written it
>
> great post!
>
> chris
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Joanna Rutkowska <
> joanna@invisiblethingslab.com> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Recently Xen has released the XSA-148 advisory [1] addressing a fatal bug
> > in the
> > hypervisor. The bug has been lurking there for the last 7 years! We, the
> > Qubes
> > OS Project, have commented on this in our Security Bulletin #22 [2]. And
> > far
> > from enthusiastic commentary that was (FWIW, it was me who wrote this
> > QSB, as
> > evidenced in the commits log, in case some from the Xen community would
> > like to
> > direct their rage towards a particular human being ;) Ian Jackson then
> > wrote a
> > response on the Xen blog [3]. I was then asked to share some more
> > thoughts about
> > how I thought Xen could actually improve its security process [4]. So, I
> > share
> > some these below:
> >
> > 1. First of all, I wish Xen was somehow more defensively coded. To
> > provide some
> > examples:
> >
> > a. In XSA-109 [5] there was a problem with the hypervisor dereferencing a
> > NULL
> > pointer. The problem was fixed by the Xen Security Team by applying a
> > patch
> > which (hopefully) made sure the execution path that lead to this NULL
> > pointer
> > dereferencing code was never taken. Back then I suggested (on the Xen
> > pre-disclosure list) to make this patch more explicit though:
> >
> > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 02:31:51PM +0100, Joanna Rutkowska wrote:
> > > (...)
> > > >
> > > > Wouldn't it be prudent to also check if:
> > > >
> > > > (v->arch.paging.mode>{write_guest_entry,cmpxchg_guest_entry} != NULL)
> > > >
> > > > ... in the two affected functions, just before derefing these function
> > > > pointers?
> > > >
> > > > Going even a step further: how about replacing all
> > > > function-pointer-based calls with macros that first validates the
> > > > pointer before derefing it? At least when the system doesn't have SMEP?
> > > >
> >
> > ...to which I got a reply from one of the Xen Security Team engineers
> > that the
> > above might perhaps be justified in debug builds only, followed by a
> > standard:
> > "feel free to contribute a patch".
> >
> > b. The XSA-123 [6] was another critical security bug in Xen, this time
> > resulting
> > from one of the hypervisor developer's fetish to use an absolutely
> > confusing
> > construct in order to save a few modest bytes in a structure which might
> > have
> > been allocated by the system maybe a few tens of times at best. Even more
> > worrying was the way how Xen Security Team decided to fix the bug: again
> > by
> > modifying some condition in the code further up the execution path, with
> > the
> > hopes that this time they would ensure this puzzling construct would
> > always be
> > used properly. We wrote more about this in our QSB #18 [7].
> >
> > c. Finally, the way how Xen fixed the recent XSA-148 looks also very
> > reactive,
> > IMHO. With a bug of this calibre, I would expect Xen to carefully review
> > and
> > augment all its PV memory virtualization code with additional checks
> > (ASSERTs),
> > ensuring certain invariants are always satisfied. Such as e.g. that none
> > of the
> > pages containing PDEs or PTEs are becoming writeable by the VM.
> >
> > I can't help but have a feeling that some of the Xen developers seem to be
> > overconfident in their belief they can fully understand all the possible
> > execution paths in their code. Well, the XSAs quoted above are an
> > indisputable
> > prove that this is not quite always the case. Realizing that, each
> > developer by
> > themselves, might be a great step towards a more secure hypervisor...
> >
> > 2. Another security-related aspect of the Xen project is how it totally
> > ignores
> > problems related to the build process security. Those who don't believe me
> > should grep the sources for wget, which is now disguised as "FETCHER"
> > shell
> > variable... (so grep for "FETCHER" string)
> >
> > I feel embarrassed that I need to explain, at the end of 2015, why the
> > build
> > process of any serious software project should not blindly download
> > unsigned
> > components (sources) from the Internet, especially if it is about to
> > execute
> > Makefiles from these components a moment later... Come on, guys!
> >
> > (Of course we have been forced to get around this gapping security whole
> > in
> > Qubes OS [8] ourselves, sadly with a method that is not well suited for
> > upstreaming).
> >
> > 3. Another thing is, of course: stop adding features to the core
> > hypervisor. We
> > really need Xen to finally mature, stabilize, and for its development
> > process to
> > be slowing down over time (just the bug fixes). We need a
> > long-term-supported
> > hypervisor, which doesn't change with subsonic speed. This would allow
> > this core
> > code to be widely audited by many experts. If some users want features,
> > these
> > should perhaps be maintained as additional modules (no, I don't mean
> > dynamically
> > loaded modules, just compile-time included), preferably in separate repos.
> >
> > Perhaps also to move all the non-hypervisor code, such as all the
> > toolstacks,
> > stubdom, etc, into separate repos also. For hygiene, if for nothing else.
> >
> > Admittedly, some of the features are a result of hardware evolution, such
> > as
> > e.g. UEFI support. But many are not. Again, maintaining these as optional
> > code
> > (in separate repos) would be a great step into getting the hypervisor
> > maturing,
> > finally.
> >
> > I have already written about it years ago [9], as a matter of fact.
> >
> > 4. Finally, I've been really surprised by the line of reasoning Ian
> > expressed in
> > the above-mentioned blog post. TL;DR: "we're still doing pretty great,
> > compared
> > to other projects, because: 1) we have smaller number of publicly
> > disclosed
> > bugs, and 2) we actually publicly disclose these bugs which we are aware
> > of".
> >
> > The attitude presented in the blog post is so wrong, that I'm not even
> > sure
> > where to start commenting on this...
> >
> > With a single bug like the XSA-148 which, let me repeat that one more
> > time: had
> > been present in the hypervisor for the last 7 years, so with a bug like
> > this it
> > really doesn't matter how many (i.e. what number) of critical bugs does
> > the
> > competition have. Because only one bug of this calibre is enough for the
> > attacker to never really bother to find another one. The mere fact that
> > competing hypervisors might got 12 bugs during the same period, really
> > doesn't
> > make Xen look any better, sorry.
> >
> > Also, there is really nothing to be proud that you disclose the bugs. It
> > would
> > be a problem if you didn't.
> >
> > Hope the above comments might help improve the Xen security. Perhaps some
> > would
> > perceive them as arrogant or rude. Too bad. Remember the actual attackers
> > will
> > not be arrogant or rude -- they will just come and exploit bugs, silently.
> > Admittedly this might not hurt some of the developers ego, not in the
> > short time
> > at least.
> >
> > Can we, the Qubes OS project, or myself personally, help with
> > implementing the
> > above suggestions? Sadly, no. While some of us do contribute occasional
> > patches
> > to Xen (specifically Marek Marczykowski-Górecki), we really work for a
> > different
> > project and have different tasks and responsibilities.
> >
> > Regards,
> > joanna.
> >
> > [1] http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-148.html
> > [2]
> > https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-022-2015.txt
> > [3] https://blog.xenproject.org/2015/10/30/security-vs-features/
> > [4] https://twitter.com/xen_org/status/660151720463482880
> > [5] http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-109.html
> > [6] http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-123.html
> > [7]
> > https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-018-2015.txt
> > [8]
> > https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-vmm-xen/commit/dcd6c0a4f2c6226a9b706e62469d420579c86975
> > [9] http://lists.xen.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2013-09/msg01815.html
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> > vgYBTJr/2cRrtC4y1An5
> > =zQmw
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen-devel mailing list
> > Xen-devel@lists.xen.org
> > http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel
> >
>
>
>
Having read the conversation thus far, I can see and sympathize with both
sides. It does not appear to me that the situation at Xen is something
that can be very easily "fixed" to the satisfaction of ITL and the Qubes
community. This is especially evident if you consider it to be "a mindset"
that needs to be "fixed" and the fact that Xen doesn't see eye-to-eye on
this matter. As much as I would like and expect Xen to be secure and
fit into Qubes' needs, I don't think it is fair to demand this of a project
that is coded by volunteers. They are providing free software that they
want to provide. In my opinion, if one is not happy with it, then they
should either become active in the project to facilitate a change or use an
alternative product / fork.
I imagine that using an alternative is easier said than done. However, if
ITL and the Qubes community believes that "there is something wrong with
Xen as a whole project", and Xen is not, and will not for the foreseeable
future, be providing the security that is critical to the security of
Qubes, are you able to share your thoughts on what is being planned to
rectify this situation?
Note: This post is directed to ITL and the Qubes Community, accordingly, I
have not cc'd the xen-devel list on it.
Kind regards,
Richard
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[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov \
9, 2015 at 5:00 PM, chris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tknchris@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">tknchris@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div \
dir="ltr">+1... so many great points here that ive thought many times its almost as \
if i could have written it<div><br></div><div>great \
post!</div><div><br></div><div>chris</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Joanna \
Rutkowska <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joanna@invisiblethingslab.com" \
target="_blank">joanna@invisiblethingslab.com</a>></span> \
wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div><div \
class="h5">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
Recently Xen has released the XSA-148 advisory [1] addressing a fatal bug in the<br>
hypervisor. The bug has been lurking there for the last 7 years! We, the Qubes<br>
OS Project, have commented on this in our Security Bulletin #22 [2]. And far<br>
from enthusiastic commentary that was (FWIW, it was me who wrote this QSB, as<br>
evidenced in the commits log, in case some from the Xen community would like to<br>
direct their rage towards a particular human being ;) Ian Jackson then wrote a<br>
response on the Xen blog [3]. I was then asked to share some more thoughts about<br>
how I thought Xen could actually improve its security process [4]. So, I share<br>
some these below:<br>
<br>
1. First of all, I wish Xen was somehow more defensively coded. To provide some<br>
examples:<br>
<br>
a. In XSA-109 [5] there was a problem with the hypervisor dereferencing a NULL<br>
pointer. The problem was fixed by the Xen Security Team by applying a patch<br>
which (hopefully) made sure the execution path that lead to this NULL pointer<br>
dereferencing code was never taken. Back then I suggested (on the Xen<br>
pre-disclosure list) to make this patch more explicit though:<br>
<br>
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 02:31:51PM +0100, Joanna Rutkowska wrote:<br>
> (...)<br>
>><br>
>> Wouldn't it be prudent to also check if:<br>
>><br>
>> (v->arch.paging.mode>{write_guest_entry,cmpxchg_guest_entry} != \
NULL)<br> >><br>
>> ... in the two affected functions, just before derefing these function<br>
>> pointers?<br>
>><br>
>> Going even a step further: how about replacing all<br>
>> function-pointer-based calls with macros that first validates the<br>
>> pointer before derefing it? At least when the system doesn't have \
SMEP?<br> >><br>
<br>
...to which I got a reply from one of the Xen Security Team engineers that the<br>
above might perhaps be justified in debug builds only, followed by a standard:<br>
"feel free to contribute a patch".<br>
<br>
b. The XSA-123 [6] was another critical security bug in Xen, this time resulting<br>
from one of the hypervisor developer's fetish to use an absolutely confusing<br>
construct in order to save a few modest bytes in a structure which might have<br>
been allocated by the system maybe a few tens of times at best. Even more<br>
worrying was the way how Xen Security Team decided to fix the bug: again by<br>
modifying some condition in the code further up the execution path, with the<br>
hopes that this time they would ensure this puzzling construct would always be<br>
used properly. We wrote more about this in our QSB #18 [7].<br>
<br>
c. Finally, the way how Xen fixed the recent XSA-148 looks also very reactive,<br>
IMHO. With a bug of this calibre, I would expect Xen to carefully review and<br>
augment all its PV memory virtualization code with additional checks (ASSERTs),<br>
ensuring certain invariants are always satisfied. Such as e.g. that none of the<br>
pages containing PDEs or PTEs are becoming writeable by the VM.<br>
<br>
I can't help but have a feeling that some of the Xen developers seem to be<br>
overconfident in their belief they can fully understand all the possible<br>
execution paths in their code. Well, the XSAs quoted above are an indisputable<br>
prove that this is not quite always the case. Realizing that, each developer by<br>
themselves, might be a great step towards a more secure hypervisor...<br>
<br>
2. Another security-related aspect of the Xen project is how it totally ignores<br>
problems related to the build process security. Those who don't believe me<br>
should grep the sources for wget, which is now disguised as "FETCHER" \
shell<br> variable... (so grep for "FETCHER" string)<br>
<br>
I feel embarrassed that I need to explain, at the end of 2015, why the build<br>
process of any serious software project should not blindly download unsigned<br>
components (sources) from the Internet, especially if it is about to execute<br>
Makefiles from these components a moment later... Come on, guys!<br>
<br>
(Of course we have been forced to get around this gapping security whole in<br>
Qubes OS [8] ourselves, sadly with a method that is not well suited for<br>
upstreaming).<br>
<br>
3. Another thing is, of course: stop adding features to the core hypervisor. We<br>
really need Xen to finally mature, stabilize, and for its development process to<br>
be slowing down over time (just the bug fixes). We need a long-term-supported<br>
hypervisor, which doesn't change with subsonic speed. This would allow this \
core<br> code to be widely audited by many experts. If some users want features, \
these<br> should perhaps be maintained as additional modules (no, I don't mean \
dynamically<br> loaded modules, just compile-time included), preferably in separate \
repos.<br> <br>
Perhaps also to move all the non-hypervisor code, such as all the toolstacks,<br>
stubdom, etc, into separate repos also. For hygiene, if for nothing else.<br>
<br>
Admittedly, some of the features are a result of hardware evolution, such as<br>
e.g. UEFI support. But many are not. Again, maintaining these as optional code<br>
(in separate repos) would be a great step into getting the hypervisor maturing,<br>
finally.<br>
<br>
I have already written about it years ago [9], as a matter of fact.<br>
<br>
4. Finally, I've been really surprised by the line of reasoning Ian expressed \
in<br> the above-mentioned blog post. TL;DR: "we're still doing pretty \
great, compared<br> to other projects, because: 1) we have smaller number of publicly \
disclosed<br> bugs, and 2) we actually publicly disclose these bugs which we are \
aware of".<br> <br>
The attitude presented in the blog post is so wrong, that I'm not even sure<br>
where to start commenting on this...<br>
<br>
With a single bug like the XSA-148 which, let me repeat that one more time: had<br>
been present in the hypervisor for the last 7 years, so with a bug like this it<br>
really doesn't matter how many (i.e. what number) of critical bugs does the<br>
competition have. Because only one bug of this calibre is enough for the<br>
attacker to never really bother to find another one. The mere fact that<br>
competing hypervisors might got 12 bugs during the same period, really \
doesn't<br> make Xen look any better, sorry.<br>
<br>
Also, there is really nothing to be proud that you disclose the bugs. It would<br>
be a problem if you didn't.<br>
<br>
Hope the above comments might help improve the Xen security. Perhaps some would<br>
perceive them as arrogant or rude. Too bad. Remember the actual attackers will<br>
not be arrogant or rude -- they will just come and exploit bugs, silently.<br>
Admittedly this might not hurt some of the developers ego, not in the short time<br>
at least.<br>
<br>
Can we, the Qubes OS project, or myself personally, help with implementing the<br>
above suggestions? Sadly, no. While some of us do contribute occasional patches<br>
to Xen (specifically Marek Marczykowski-Górecki), we really work for a different<br>
project and have different tasks and responsibilities.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
joanna.<br>
<br>
[1] <a href="http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-148.html" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-148.html</a><br> [2] <a \
href="https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-022-2015.txt" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-022-2015.txt</a><br>
[3] <a href="https://blog.xenproject.org/2015/10/30/security-vs-features/" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://blog.xenproject.org/2015/10/30/security-vs-features/</a><br>
[4] <a href="https://twitter.com/xen_org/status/660151720463482880" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">https://twitter.com/xen_org/status/660151720463482880</a><br> [5] <a \
href="http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-109.html" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-109.html</a><br> [6] <a \
href="http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-123.html" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-123.html</a><br> [7] <a \
href="https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-018-2015.txt" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-018-2015.txt</a><br>
[8] <a href="https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-vmm-xen/commit/dcd6c0a4f2c6226a9b706e62469d420579c86975" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-vmm-xen/commit/dcd6c0a4f2c6226a9b706e62469d420579c86975</a><br>
[9] <a href="http://lists.xen.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2013-09/msg01815.html" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.xen.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2013-09/msg01815.html</a><br>
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<a href="mailto:Xen-devel@lists.xen.org" \
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href="http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel</a><br> \
</blockquote></div><br></div><span>
<p></p>
</span><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Having read the \
conversation thus far, I can see and sympathize with both sides. It does not appear \
to me that the situation at Xen is something that can be very easily \
"fixed" to the satisfaction of ITL and the Qubes community. This is \
especially evident if you consider it to be "a mindset" that needs to be \
"fixed" and the fact that Xen doesn't see eye-to-eye on this matter. \
As much as I would like and expect Xen to be secure and fit into Qubes' needs, \
I don't think it is fair to demand this of a project that is coded by volunteers. \
They are providing free software that they want to provide. In my opinion, if one is \
not happy with it, then they should either become active in the project to \
facilitate a change or use an alternative product / fork.</div><div><br></div><div>I \
imagine that using an alternative is easier said than done. However, if ITL and \
the Qubes community believes that "there is something wrong with Xen as a whole \
project", and Xen is not, and will not for the foreseeable future, be providing \
the security that is critical to the security of Qubes, are you able to share your \
thoughts on what is being planned to rectify this \
situation?</div><div><br></div><div>Note: This post is directed to ITL and the Qubes \
Community, accordingly, I have not cc'd the xen-devel list on \
it.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,<br>Richard </div></div><br></div></div>
<p></p>
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