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List: python-distutils-sig
Subject: Re: [Distutils] latest setuptools appears to require six in a breaking way
From: Eric Brunson <brunson () brunson ! com>
Date: 2017-01-27 19:54:58
Message-ID: 01000159e17ec33c-f5ae4b8f-ddf3-4ce1-90d7-6bfc959d3163-000000 () email ! amazonses ! com
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Donald,
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the situation so
thoroughly. I guess it's pretty easy to get confused by where the tools
overlap and where they are disjoint. I think I understand better.
To be sure, my original email was focused on the setuptools instability
we've seen in the past 6 to 8 weeks, as we rely on that for our CI and
deployment automation. I hope is a growing pain and things will settle
down in the near term. I know there are big changes going on and these
sorts of things can't always be painless.
Sincerely,
e.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:14 PM Eric Brunson <brunson@brunson.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 5:52 PM Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Eric Brunson <brunson@brunson.com> wrote:
>
> It wasn't until recently the I realized how quickly releases to setuptools
> and pip are being made, starting back in mid Dec when much of our
> dependency resolution started failing. There were three releases in the
> past two days. Four major and 22 minor releases in the past two months.
> While I applaud the speed of development and the improvement in these
> tools, don't you feel that breaking changes should be advertised better
> before release or perhaps we should slow down the cadence for release?
>
> I think an expectation that every setuptools user in the community start
> their day by checking to see if there was a release in the past 24 hours is
> a little unreasonable. I've spent a dozen hours since 32.0.0 resolving
> breakage in my own projects and assisting other developers in my org with
> their setuptools issues, all the while pushing setuptools as the best
> practice to do development and distribution. Is this period of breaking
> changes a short term thing that we just have to tough out for a few more
> weeks?
>
> Thanks,
> e.
>
>
>
> I don't believe that pip is really releasing that quickly. We generally
> make 1-2 "major" versions a year that include breaking changes, 2-4 "minor"
> releases a year that add new features, and 6-10 patch releases that fix
> bugs. To me that feels like a pretty decent pace of balancing not breaking
> people and getting new changes into people's hands and getting rid of
> broken or less optimal parts of the code.
>
> Now, setuptools is releasing faster than pip is and whether that's a good
> thing or not I don't know. That's a question for Jason largely :)
>
>
> Hey Donald,
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Doesn't pip rely heavily on setuptools? I understand they have different
> origins, but I thought that since pip was moved under the purview of PYPA a
> lot of work was being done to converge the projects. When I run a pip -e
> one of the last message I see is "running setuptools.py develop", which
> isn't really a dependency, but can certainly cause people to infer that the
> problem is with pip and not know setuptools. Even the release notes
> Matthias references mentions pip as though it might be affected.
>
> If pip doesn't rely on setuptools, does that mean we have two separate and
> possibly different dependency resolution algorithms?
>
> Sincerely,
> e.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
>
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<div dir="ltr">Donald,<div><br></div><div>Thank you so much for taking the time to \
explain the situation so thoroughly. I guess it's pretty easy to get confused \
by where the tools overlap and where they are disjoint. I think I understand \
better.</div><div><br></div><div>To be sure, my original email was focused on the \
setuptools instability we've seen in the past 6 to 8 weeks, as we rely on that \
for our CI and deployment automation. I hope is a growing pain and things will \
settle down in the near term. I know there are big changes going on and these sorts \
of things can't always be \
painless.</div><div><br></div><div>Sincerely,</div><div>e.</div></div><br><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:14 PM Eric Brunson \
<<a href="mailto:brunson@brunson.com">brunson@brunson.com</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_msg"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><div dir="ltr" \
class="gmail_msg">On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 5:52 PM Donald Stufft <<a \
href="mailto:donald@stufft.io" class="gmail_msg" \
target="_blank">donald@stufft.io</a>> wrote:<br \
class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div \
dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote \
gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" \
class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><blockquote \
type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:27 PM, \
Eric Brunson <<a href="mailto:brunson@brunson.com" class="gmail_msg" \
target="_blank">brunson@brunson.com</a>> wrote:</div><br \
class="m_2417883012529398514m_-1773433818638655408m_-3279135361812742496m_-3292135389205375403Apple-interchange-newline \
gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg">It wasn't \
until recently the I realized how quickly releases to setuptools and pip are being \
made, starting back in mid Dec when much of our dependency resolution started \
failing. There were three releases in the past two days. Four major and 22 minor \
releases in the past two months. While I applaud the speed of development and the \
improvement in these tools, don't you feel that breaking changes should be \
advertised better before release or perhaps we should slow down the cadence for \
release?<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">I \
think an expectation that every setuptools user in the community start their day by \
checking to see if there was a release in the past 24 hours is a little unreasonable. \
I've spent a dozen hours since 32.0.0 resolving breakage in my own projects and \
assisting other developers in my org with their setuptools issues, all the while \
pushing setuptools as the best practice to do development and distribution. Is this \
period of breaking changes a short term thing that we just have to tough out for a \
few more weeks?<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div \
class="gmail_msg">Thanks,</div><div class="gmail_msg">e.</div><br \
class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div></blockquote><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div \
class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word" \
class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">I don't believe that pip is really releasing \
that quickly. We generally make 1-2 "major" versions a year that include breaking \
changes, 2-4 "minor" releases a year that add new features, and 6-10 patch releases \
that fix bugs. To me that feels like a pretty decent pace of balancing not breaking \
people and getting new changes into people's hands and getting rid of broken or less \
optimal parts of the code.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br \
class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">Now, setuptools is releasing faster \
than pip is and whether that's a good thing or not I don't know. That's a question \
for Jason largely :)</div><div class="gmail_msg"><span \
style="text-align:-webkit-auto" \
class="gmail_msg"></span></div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_msg"><br \
class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div \
dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote \
gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">Hey Donald,</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br \
class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">Thanks for the reply.</div><div \
class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">Doesn't pip \
rely heavily on setuptools? I understand they have different origins, but I thought \
that since pip was moved under the purview of PYPA a lot of work<span \
class="m_2417883012529398514m_-1773433818638655408m_-3279135361812742496inbox-inbox-Apple-converted-space \
gmail_msg"> </span>was being done to converge the projects. When I run a pip -e one \
of the last message I see is "running setuptools.py develop", which \
isn't really a dependency, but can certainly cause people to infer that the \
problem is with pip and not know setuptools. Even the release notes Matthias \
references mentions pip as though it might be affected.</div><div \
class="gmail_msg"><span style="text-align:-webkit-auto" class="gmail_msg"><br \
class="gmail_msg"></span></div><div class="gmail_msg"><span \
style="text-align:-webkit-auto" class="gmail_msg">If pip doesn't rely on \
setuptools, does that mean we have two separate and possibly different dependency \
resolution algorithms?<br class="gmail_msg"><br \
class="gmail_msg">Sincerely,</span></div><div class="gmail_msg"><span \
style="text-align:-webkit-auto" class="gmail_msg">e.</span></div><div \
class="gmail_msg"><span style="text-align:-webkit-auto" class="gmail_msg"><br \
class="gmail_msg"></span></div></div></div></div></div> \
_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg"> Distutils-SIG \
maillist - <a href="mailto:Distutils-SIG@python.org" class="gmail_msg" \
target="_blank">Distutils-SIG@python.org</a><br class="gmail_msg"> <a \
href="https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig" rel="noreferrer" \
class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig</a><br \
class="gmail_msg"> </blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________
Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
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