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Subject: Re: [Owasp-testing] [Owasp-leaders] Unsubscribe
From: Neil Smithline <neil.smithline () owasp ! org>
Date: 2014-06-09 17:08:53
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Neil Smithline
408-634-5764
http://www.neilsmithline.com
On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 1:03 PM, <beth.ritter-guth@ucc.edu> wrote:
> I need this, as well. I would like my email to only go to my OWASP
> account.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org [mailto:
> owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Perfetti
> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:00 PM
> To: owasp-leaders@lists.owasp.org; owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org
> Subject: Re: [Owasp-leaders] Unsubscribe
>
> Too much email at this address. I need to have my owaso email address
> fixed and all mail going there. Who do I need to contact to get that done=
?
>
> On Jun 9, 2014, at 9:57, Mike Nickel <mike.nickel@aspectsecurity.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Unsubscribe
> >
> > MIKE NICKEL IT SUPPORT ENGINEER
> > Office: 301.604.4882 x7005 | Direct: 240.459.1592
> > Mike.Nickel@AspectSecurity.com <image001.png>
> >
> > From: owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org
> > [mailto:owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org] On Behalf Of Dinis Cruz
> > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 10:52 AM
> > To: psiinon
> > Cc: Jason Flood; owasp-leaders@lists.owasp.org;
> > owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org
> > Subject: Re: [Owasp-leaders] (on respectufull OWASP threads) Re:
> > [Owasp-testing] Flagship Project Status
> >
> > Regarding Christian's abuses and attacks, that 'reporting' has been don=
e
> many times before, and this is not really a Whistleblower case since by
> definition all that is happening is public domain, the issue is 'acceptan=
ce
> (or not) of such behaviour'
> >
> > Dinis
> >
> > On 9 June 2014 15:08, psiinon <psiinon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If anyone has any concerns about an individual's conduct on OWASP
> > mailing lists then they should report them to the OWASP Compliance
> > officer as per
> > https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Governance/Whistleblower_Policy
> > This is the correct way forward, and I'm sure that the number of
> complaints against an individual will be taken into account.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Simon
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Dinis Cruz <dinis.cruz@owasp.org> wrote=
:
> > Jason you are absolutely correct and this type of accusations and
> behaviour should not be allowed/tolerated at OWASP.
> >
> > The reality is that Christian (as you can see on this thread) is the on=
e
> that tends to behave like that. There has been many 'arguments' and 'owas=
p
> threads' in the past, but Christian is the one that brings that level of
> conversion to the table.
> >
> > Christian has already been banned (at least) twice in the past from
> OWASP, and after many requests (by many parties) the current board (which
> should be the 'referee' that you mention) has failed to put an end into i=
t.
> >
> > My biggest problem with Christian's behaviour is not the accusations
> that he makes (although I have to say that being one of the many in the
> receiving end of such personal attacks ,is not nice at all (specially whe=
n
> he makes accusations about OWASP activities that took a lot of effort and
> personal sacrifice)), my biggest problem is the idea that such behaviour =
is
> accepted/tolerated at OWASP.
> >
> > OWASP SHOULD NOT tolerate that type of behaviour, from anyone.
> >
> > This doesn't mean that we should not disagree with each other, of cours=
e
> we should, BUT it is key that the discussion is kept on a professional
> level and there is a minimum level of respect.
> >
> > And of course, if some OWASP leader or contributor feels that something
> is really wrong , then yes that should be reported (with evidence
> supporting it). But that is not what Christian does.
> >
> > So please, can the OWASP board deal with this type of accusations! Ther=
e
> have been too many OWASP leaders and key contributors offended, which is
> really the big loss here.
> >
> > Dinis
> >
> > On 7 June 2014 13:05, Jason Flood <jasoneflood@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I've been watching this mail thread evolve in a mixture of shock and
> disappointment. I've have been the leader of a volunteer security group i=
n
> Dublin, I've been attacked, I've been publicly questioned, I've been
> insulted. As the leader my hands were tied, as I was supposed to raise
> myself above the natural human reaction I wanted to have. In times like
> this it was great when the community itself would *jump in* and define wh=
at
> it would tolerate from it's members, both at a project level but also at
> the human level of how we engage and communicate with each other.
> >
> > In this group - I am not on the board. I am one of the voices, freed
> from the constraints of political correctness and being the "better man".
> >
> > I have witnessed highly insulting name calling with the turncoat
> statement, potentially professionally damaging statements about disgruntl=
ed
> employee behavior, organisational corruption insinuated with the nepotism
> theory's [without reference to the skill sets of those hired] even leanin=
g
> towards accusing someone of embezzlement of funds.
> >
> > The tone, the attitude and sentiment of these communications need to
> stop. The corruption "facts" need to be elevated out of this arena, and
> into a far more formalized process. Public slander should not be tolerate=
d
> at any level, least of all between the OWASP community itself. Jokes and
> Jibes are part an parcel of any group. I do not see the humor in this
> thread. Just ego.
> >
> > We are a very small community - I've met Simon, twice. I saw Dinis once
> at an OWASP gig in Dublin maybe 4 years ago. I looked at O2 as a potentia=
l
> project to bring into my day job to help with automation, but at the time=
I
> found it a bit prototypy for a rollout. I have not looked at it since. It
> could be great now, It could be worse.
> >
> > I am stating this so you can understand I am not friends, or married to
> cousins of key stake holders or go for walks with OWASP board members dog=
s.
> My opinions are my own. My linked in profile is at least 4 years out of
> date, I don't do face book - so apologies to the background checkers. The
> hostile nature of this communication thread needs to end. I'll go even on=
e
> step further - and explain myself in World cup terms.
> >
> > In my opinion - someone has just been tackled in the box and the strike=
r
> has gone down. The referee has to make the decision. Was there a foul
> committed or did the striker take a dive? One thing is certain, at this
> point it's not O.K to wave play on.
> >
> > Compile your evidence of corruption. Send it discreetly to the board.
> Let the powers that be evaluate it. If the allegations are determined to
> be unjustified - its either a red card offence or a yellow, the referee c=
an
> decide. Or there is a penalty due that will change the course of the game=
.
> >
> > Arguably if this matter had of been handled more discreetly I do not
> think a yellow/red card would be justified irrespective of the result. At
> this point I am not so sure. People should question and protest, it's how
> they question - the medium they choose, and their approach that is subjec=
t
> to review.
> >
> > I also do not believe any project status should be above review. I thin=
k
> downgrading everything - and then upgrading was potentially the fairest a=
nd
> cleanest approach. Surely that technique is symbolic that the OWASP board
> are not playing favorites.
> > I will not get involved in any further communication on this thread. I
> will not reply to any response to this note. This is a toxic hostile thre=
ad
> that needs to stop in it's current format. Compile the evidence, put it
> forward and OWASP should clean house to suit the desired result of the
> inquiry.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 2:34 AM, psiinon <psiinon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't have an issue with Simon but the fact is Michael Coates, him
> > and you have all worked for Mozilla and yet OWASP invested in WebScrab
> > in the past. In Simon's defence he probably didn't know about
> > WebScrab because OWASP didn't help with the promotion of known
> > projects since hired Dinis Cruz hired personal friends to promote his
> > own projects.
> >
> >
> > On the contrary, I was very aware of WebScarab and its importance to
> OWASP at the time - I half expected my application for ZAP to become an
> OWASP project to be rejected due to the clear overlap with WebScarab.
> > I wanted to create a powerful but easy to use security tool for
> developers, and I seriously considered using WebScarab as the basis for
> that tool.
> > However while WebScarab had much more of the functionality that I wante=
d
> than Paros did, I found WebScarab very complicated and unintuitive.
> > I decided that I would rather add functionality to Paros than try to
> > make WebScarab easier to use, and I've not regretted that decision :)
> >
> > I do agree that OWASP has not been very effective at promoting any of
> its projects, including ZAP.
> > However I'm not going to point fingers at any individuals.
> > OWASP is primarily a volunteer organization, and its up to all of us to
> address issues that we are concerned with.
> > While I think OWASP could do a better job of promoting all of its
> > projects I dont have any big ideas how that could be achieved -
> marketing is not my area of expertise ;) I dont like criticizing unless I
> can offer constructive alternatives.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Simon
> >
> > --
> > OWASP ZAP Project leader
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Owasp-testing mailing list
> > Owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org
> > https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-testing
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Coimh=C3=A9ad fearg fhear na foighde.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Owasp-testing mailing list
> > Owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org
> > https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-testing
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > OWASP ZAP Project leader
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The contents of this email message and any
> attachments are confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). If
> you are not the intended recipient of this message, please alert the send=
er
> by reply email and delete this message and any attachments. Any use,
> dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments by
> unintended recipients is prohibited.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OWASP-Leaders mailing list
> > OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org
> > https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>
> _______________________________________________
> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
> OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org
> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
> _______________________________________________
> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
> OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org
> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr">Go to <a href="http://owasp.org">http://owasp.org</a> and select \
"Mailing Lists" in the left-hand column. Select the correct list and follow \
the unsubscribe directions at the bottom of the page.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><br>Neil \
Smithline<br>408-634-5764<br><a href="http://www.neilsmithline.com/" \
target="_blank">http://www.neilsmithline.com</a></div></div> <br><br><div \
class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 1:03 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:beth.ritter-guth@ucc.edu" \
target="_blank">beth.ritter-guth@ucc.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex">
I need this, as well. I would like my email to only go to my OWASP account.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org">owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org</a> \
[mailto:<a href="mailto:owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org">owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org</a>] \
On Behalf Of Peter Perfetti<br>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:00 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:owasp-leaders@lists.owasp.org">owasp-leaders@lists.owasp.org</a>; \
<a href="mailto:owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org">owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Owasp-leaders] Unsubscribe<br>
<br>
Too much email at this address. I need to have my owaso email address fixed and all \
mail going there. Who do I need to contact to get that done?<br> <br>
On Jun 9, 2014, at 9:57, Mike Nickel <<a \
href="mailto:mike.nickel@aspectsecurity.com">mike.nickel@aspectsecurity.com</a>> \
wrote:<br> <br>
> Unsubscribe<br>
><br>
> MIKE NICKEL IT SUPPORT ENGINEER<br>
> Office: <a href="tel:301.604.4882%20x7005" value="+13016044882">301.604.4882 \
x7005</a> | Direct: <a href="tel:240.459.1592" \
value="+12404591592">240.459.1592</a><br> > Mike.Nickel@AspectSecurity.com \
<image001.png><br> ><br>
> From: <a href="mailto:owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org">owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org">owasp-leaders-bounces@lists.owasp.org</a>] \
On Behalf Of Dinis Cruz<br> > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 10:52 AM<br>
> To: psiinon<br>
> Cc: Jason Flood; <a \
href="mailto:owasp-leaders@lists.owasp.org">owasp-leaders@lists.owasp.org</a>;<br> \
> <a href="mailto:owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org">owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Owasp-leaders] (on respectufull OWASP threads) Re:<br>
> [Owasp-testing] Flagship Project Status<br>
><br>
> Regarding Christian's abuses and attacks, that 'reporting' has been \
done many times before, and this is not really a Whistleblower case since by \
definition all that is happening is public domain, the issue is 'acceptance (or \
not) of such behaviour'<br>
><br>
> Dinis<br>
><br>
> On 9 June 2014 15:08, psiinon <<a \
href="mailto:psiinon@gmail.com">psiinon@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > If anyone \
has any concerns about an individual's conduct on OWASP<br> > mailing lists \
then they should report them to the OWASP Compliance<br> > officer as per<br>
> <a href="https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Governance/Whistleblower_Policy" \
target="_blank">https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Governance/Whistleblower_Policy</a><br>
> This is the correct way forward, and I'm sure that the number of complaints \
against an individual will be taken into account.<br> ><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> Simon<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Dinis Cruz <<a \
href="mailto:dinis.cruz@owasp.org">dinis.cruz@owasp.org</a>> wrote:<br> > Jason \
you are absolutely correct and this type of accusations and behaviour should not be \
allowed/tolerated at OWASP.<br> ><br>
> The reality is that Christian (as you can see on this thread) is the one that \
tends to behave like that. There has been many 'arguments' and 'owasp \
threads' in the past, but Christian is the one that brings that level of \
conversion to the table.<br>
><br>
> Christian has already been banned (at least) twice in the past from OWASP, and \
after many requests (by many parties) the current board (which should be the \
'referee' that you mention) has failed to put an end into it.<br>
><br>
> My biggest problem with Christian's behaviour is not the accusations that he \
makes (although I have to say that being one of the many in the receiving end of such \
personal attacks ,is not nice at all (specially when he makes accusations about OWASP \
activities that took a lot of effort and personal sacrifice)), my biggest problem is \
the idea that such behaviour is accepted/tolerated at OWASP.<br>
><br>
> OWASP SHOULD NOT tolerate that type of behaviour, from anyone.<br>
><br>
> This doesn't mean that we should not disagree with each other, of course we \
should, BUT it is key that the discussion is kept on a professional level and there \
is a minimum level of respect.<br> ><br>
> And of course, if some OWASP leader or contributor feels that something is \
really wrong , then yes that should be reported (with evidence supporting it). But \
that is not what Christian does.<br> ><br>
> So please, can the OWASP board deal with this type of accusations! There have \
been too many OWASP leaders and key contributors offended, which is really the big \
loss here.<br> ><br>
> Dinis<br>
><br>
> On 7 June 2014 13:05, Jason Flood <<a \
href="mailto:jasoneflood@gmail.com">jasoneflood@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > \
Hello Everyone,<br> ><br>
> I've been watching this mail thread evolve in a mixture of shock and \
disappointment. I've have been the leader of a volunteer security group in \
Dublin, I've been attacked, I've been publicly questioned, I've been \
insulted. As the leader my hands were tied, as I was supposed to raise myself above \
the natural human reaction I wanted to have. In times like this it was great when the \
community itself would *jump in* and define what it would tolerate from it's \
members, both at a project level but also at the human level of how we engage and \
communicate with each other.<br>
><br>
> In this group - I am not on the board. I am one of the voices, freed from the \
constraints of political correctness and being the "better man".<br> \
><br> > I have witnessed highly insulting name calling with the turncoat \
statement, potentially professionally damaging statements about disgruntled employee \
behavior, organisational corruption insinuated with the nepotism theory's \
[without reference to the skill sets of those hired] even leaning towards accusing \
someone of embezzlement of funds.<br>
><br>
> The tone, the attitude and sentiment of these communications need to stop. The \
corruption "facts" need to be elevated out of this arena, and into a far \
more formalized process. Public slander should not be tolerated at any level, least \
of all between the OWASP community itself. Jokes and Jibes are part an parcel of any \
group. I do not see the humor in this thread. Just ego.<br>
><br>
> We are a very small community - I've met Simon, twice. I saw Dinis once at \
an OWASP gig in Dublin maybe 4 years ago. I looked at O2 as a potential project to \
bring into my day job to help with automation, but at the time I found it a bit \
prototypy for a rollout. I have not looked at it since. It could be great now, It \
could be worse.<br>
><br>
> I am stating this so you can understand I am not friends, or married to cousins \
of key stake holders or go for walks with OWASP board members dogs. My opinions are \
my own. My linked in profile is at least 4 years out of date, I don't do face \
book - so apologies to the background checkers. The hostile nature of this \
communication thread needs to end. I'll go even one step further - and explain \
myself in World cup terms.<br>
><br>
> In my opinion - someone has just been tackled in the box and the striker has \
gone down. The referee has to make the decision. Was there a foul committed or did \
the striker take a dive? One thing is certain, at this point it's not O.K to wave \
play on.<br>
><br>
> Compile your evidence of corruption. Send it discreetly to the board. Let the \
powers that be evaluate it. If the allegations are determined to be unjustified - \
its either a red card offence or a yellow, the referee can decide. Or there is a \
penalty due that will change the course of the game.<br>
><br>
> Arguably if this matter had of been handled more discreetly I do not think a \
yellow/red card would be justified irrespective of the result. At this point I am not \
so sure. People should question and protest, it's how they question - the medium \
they choose, and their approach that is subject to review.<br>
><br>
> I also do not believe any project status should be above review. I think \
downgrading everything - and then upgrading was potentially the fairest and cleanest \
approach. Surely that technique is symbolic that the OWASP board are not playing \
favorites.<br>
> I will not get involved in any further communication on this thread. I will not \
reply to any response to this note. This is a toxic hostile thread that needs to stop \
in it's current format. Compile the evidence, put it forward and OWASP should \
clean house to suit the desired result of the inquiry.<br>
><br>
> Jason<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 2:34 AM, psiinon <<a \
href="mailto:psiinon@gmail.com">psiinon@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br>
> I don't have an issue with Simon but the fact is Michael Coates, him<br>
> and you have all worked for Mozilla and yet OWASP invested in WebScrab<br>
> in the past. In Simon's defence he probably didn't know about<br>
> WebScrab because OWASP didn't help with the promotion of known<br>
> projects since hired Dinis Cruz hired personal friends to promote his<br>
> own projects.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On the contrary, I was very aware of WebScarab and its importance to OWASP at \
the time - I half expected my application for ZAP to become an OWASP project to be \
rejected due to the clear overlap with WebScarab.<br> > I wanted to create a \
powerful but easy to use security tool for developers, and I seriously considered \
using WebScarab as the basis for that tool.<br> > However while WebScarab had much \
more of the functionality that I wanted than Paros did, I found WebScarab very \
complicated and unintuitive.<br> > I decided that I would rather add functionality \
to Paros than try to<br> > make WebScarab easier to use, and I've not \
regretted that decision :)<br> ><br>
> I do agree that OWASP has not been very effective at promoting any of its \
projects, including ZAP.<br> > However I'm not going to point fingers at any \
individuals.<br> > OWASP is primarily a volunteer organization, and its up to all \
of us to address issues that we are concerned with.<br> > While I think OWASP \
could do a better job of promoting all of its<br> > projects I dont have any big \
ideas how that could be achieved - marketing is not my area of expertise ;) I dont \
like criticizing unless I can offer constructive alternatives.<br> ><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> Simon<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> OWASP ZAP Project leader<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Owasp-testing mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org">Owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-testing" \
target="_blank">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-testing</a><br> \
><br> ><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Owasp-testing mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org">Owasp-testing@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-testing" \
target="_blank">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-testing</a><br> \
><br> ><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> OWASP ZAP Project leader<br>
><br>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The contents of this email message and any attachments \
are confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the \
intended recipient of this message, please alert the sender by reply email and delete \
this message and any attachments. Any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this \
message or its attachments by unintended recipients is prohibited.<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> OWASP-Leaders mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org">OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders" \
target="_blank">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders</a><br> <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
OWASP-Leaders mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org">OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders" \
target="_blank">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders</a><br> \
_______________________________________________<br> OWASP-Leaders mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org">OWASP-Leaders@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders" \
target="_blank">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders</a><br> \
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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