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List: osgeo-discuss
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats andProprietaryAlgorithms
From: "Bob Basques" <Bob.Basques () ci ! stpaul ! mn ! us>
Date: 2009-08-25 18:34:38
Message-ID: 4A93E86E.163B.00A8.0 () ci ! stpaul ! mn ! us
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Landon,
Rather than sput off about something theoretical, I'll relate our use of
MRSID deliverables.
This is our Typical publishing process for MRSID format data that we
receive, which happens fairly regularly.
Our use case in this instance is for visual inspection of aerial
photography.
* First we extract JPG tile pyramids from the MrSID format into
MapServer ready tile layers doubling/halving the resolution of the
output for each level of tiles along with generating WORLD files for
each tile. (we actually have a static grid that we use for tiling that
makes this a one time process, since the WORLD files are reusable across
data sets.)
* Then, index the tiles for each level for Mapserver's use We start at
Level "0" (L0 = 6" resolution) and increase by doubling resolution until
we have a single tile at the City view level, ~L7.
* Mapserver is setup with a multi-level display with cutoffs for each
tiled layer at the appropriate scales.
* This approach guarantees only four tiles at most (as long as the
client viewer pixel width isn't bigger than the tile pixel size of each
tile) are ever retrieved by MapServer to build a composite output image.
The first three steps could be automated into a package that ran
automatically for example from most MRSID deliverables.
Another use case might be DEM analysis, which might require converting
into other formats as well as the data originating in some other format
besides MRSID.
Still another use case might be spectral separation and handling the
consequent analysis tasks.
Anyway, the list goes on and on I sppose.
bobb
> > > "Landon Blake" <lblake@ksninc.com> wrote:
Bob,
What did you have in mind when you said "pre-processing".
Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
From:
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org]
On Behalf Of
Bob Basques
Sent:
Monday, August 24, 2009 9:21 AM
To:
OSGeo Discussions
Subject:
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats andProprietaryAlgorithms
Landon,
Just had another thought . . .
What about setting up a (openSource) tool set specifically for handling
Raster images for pre-processing purposes. Might even be something that
publishers could re-distribute with their datasets, as in this processor
stack works with our data.
Just thinking on the run here, no detail (or ramifications though
through [at all :c) ])
bobb
> > > "Bob Basques" <Bob.Basques@ci.stpaul.mn.us> wrote:
Landon,
> It would be interesting to come up with a standard structure on a
computer file system that could be used to accessed tiled raster data,
if this hasn't been done already. One the file system structure was
defined, it would be fairly easy to write open source software that
accessed this structure and provided individual tiles as a service to
desktop GIS applications.
Hmm, interesting angle, to expand on your idea a bit more, what about a
processing suite (or set of suites) that process data for different
types of uses, visual display, DEM analysis, etc. Each "processor"
stack would/could have it's own rules associated with data resolution vs
files sizes, etc.
bobb
> > > "Landon Blake" <lblake@ksninc.com> wrote:
Bobb wrote: "Here's my reasoning, we're never (ever?) going to hit the
top end on how big files ever get, resolution just keeps going up and
up, so there is always going to be some upper limit that will need to be
breached somehow. Working out a proper method for segregating the data
up front (dare I say it), as some sort of standard (which can be
adjusted as time passes) will make everything work nicely, then all will
work with available tools when they are available, if tools to handle
larger datasets become available, and the communityI agree with some of the points \
you are making in your argument Bobb. There is certainly a practical limit to how \
much you data you should put in a single file. That is why we have lumber cut to 8 \
foot lengths. You don't need a flatbed semi to carry it to your house. :]
When you refer to a standard for splitting data up front, what do you
mean?
It would be interesting to come up with a standard structure on a
computer file system that could be used to accessed tiled raster data,
if this hasn't been done already. One the file system structure was
defined, it would be fairly easy to write open source software that
accessed this structure and provided individual tiles as a service to
desktop GIS applications.
Landon
From:
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org]
On Behalf Of
Bob Basques
Sent:
Monday, August 24, 2009 7:33 AM
To:
OSGeo Discussions
Subject:
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms
All,
Ok, I'm probably going to get someone irritated, but here goes . .
Why not approach this from the other end of the spectrum and work at
making the original files smaller. Work with the providers to make the
images smaller in the first place, or at least come up with a maximum
practical size to work with, I mean if this is the only (or biggest
reason) for implementing JP2, then getting folks to make the smaller
deliverables seems like a better long term approach.
Here's my reasoning, we're never (ever?) going to hit the top end on how
big files ever get, resolution just keeps going up and up, so there is
always going to be some upper limit that will need to be breached
somehow. Working out a proper method for segregating the data up front
(dare I say it), as some sort of standard (which can be adjusted as time
passes) will make everything work nicely, then all will work with
available tools when they are available, if tools to handle larger
datasets become available, and the community feels there is a
reason/need that these new larger files need to be handled, then they
get to change the standard.
bobb
> > > "Fawcett, David" <David.Fawcett@state.mn.us> wrote:
I realize that there are likely not a large number of people who have
the expertise and experience to write this kind of code.
Is this a project that should be shopped around for funding? Google
Summer of Code? A grant from our ~benevolent overlord Google? Some
other foundation or org interested in open data formats?
David.
-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 4:36 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary
Algorithms
<snip>
> Do you know why there hasn't been a broader adoption of JP2?
Not through lack of trying on my part :-)
I think the two biggest reasons are:
(1) The algorithms for handling large images in memory really are rocket
science, and no one in the FOSS community has gotten the "itch"
sufficiently bad enough to go and do the work needed inside the existing
open source packages. Hopefully someday someone will.
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style="margin-left: 3.0pt; margin-right: 3.0pt; margin-top: 3.0pt; margin-bottom: \
.75pt" link="blue" lang="EN-US" vlink="blue"> <p style="margin-bottom: 0; \
margin-top: 0"> <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Landon,</font> </p>
<br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Rather than sput off about something \
theoretical, I'll relate our use of MRSID deliverables.</font> </p> <br> \
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">This is our Typical publishing process for \
MRSID format data that we receive, which happens fairly regularly.</font> </p> \
<br> <p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Our use case in this instance is for visual \
inspection of aerial photography.</font> </p> <br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">* First we extract JPG tile pyramids \
from the MrSID format into MapServer ready tile layers doubling/halving the \
resolution of the output for each level of tiles along with generating WORLD files \
for each tile. (we actually have a static grid that we use for tiling that makes \
this a one time process, since the WORLD files are reusable across data \
sets.)</font> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">* Then, index the tiles for each \
level for Mapserver's use We start at Level "0" (L0 = \
6" resolution) and increase by doubling resolution until we have a single \
tile at the City view level, ~L7.</font> </p> <p \
style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0"> <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">* \
Mapserver is setup with a multi-level display with cutoffs for each tiled layer at \
the appropriate scales.</font> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">* This approach guarantees only four \
tiles at most (as long as the client viewer pixel width isn't bigger than the \
tile pixel size of each tile) are ever retrieved by MapServer to build a \
composite output image.</font> </p> <br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">The first three steps could be automated \
into a package that ran automatically for example from most MRSID \
deliverables.</font> </p> <br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Another use case might be DEM analysis, \
which might require converting into other formats as well as the data originating in \
some other format besides MRSID.</font> </p> <br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Still another use case might be spectral \
separation and handling the consequent analysis tasks.</font> </p> <br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Anyway, the list goes on and on I \
sppose.</font> </p> <br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">bobb</font> </p>
<br>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<br>
<br>
>>> "Landon Blake" <lblake@ksninc.com> wrote:<br> \
</p> <div style="margin-right: 0; margin-left: 15px; margin-top: 0; border-left: \
solid 1px #050505; margin-bottom: 0; background-color: #f3f3f3; padding-left: 7px"> \
<div class="section1"> <br>
<div style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Bob,<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
What did you have in mind when you \
said “pre-processing”.<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<div>
<br>
<div style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Landon </p>
</div>
<div style="color: navy">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 </p>
</div>
<div style="color: navy">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 </p>
</div>
<div style="color: navy">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="color: navy; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
 <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
</div>
<br>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
  </p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
</div>
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From: </p>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org \
[mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] </p> <div \
style="font-weight: bold"> <p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
On Behalf Of </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Bob Basques<br> </p>
<div style="font-weight: bold">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Sent: </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Monday, August 24, 2009 9:21 AM<br> </p>
<div style="font-weight: bold">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
To: </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<st1 st="on" personname="#DEFAULT" w="#DEFAULT">
OSGeo Discussions</st1><br> </p>
<div style="font-weight: bold">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Subject: </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats andProprietaryAlgorithms \
</p> </div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
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<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Landon, </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Just had another thought . . . </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
What about setting up a (openSource) tool set specifically for \
handling Raster images for pre-processing purposes.  Might even be \
something that publishers could re-distribute with their datasets, as in this \
processor stack works with our data. </p> </div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Just thinking on the run here, no detail (or ramifications though \
through [at all  :c) ]) </p> </div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
bobb </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<br>
<br>
>>> "Bob Basques" <Bob.Basques@ci.stpaul.mn.us> \
wrote:<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<div style="padding-right: 0in; margin-left: 11.25pt; padding-top: 0in; \
border-left: solid #050505 1.0pt; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 5.0pt; border: \
none"> <br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Landon, </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
>It would be interesting to come up with a standard structure on a \
computer file system that could be used to accessed tiled raster data, if this \
hasn’t been done already. One the file system structure was defined, it \
would be fairly easy to write open source software that accessed this structure and \
provided individual tiles as a service to desktop GIS applications.   \
</p> </div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Hmm, interesting angle, to expand on your idea a bit more, \
what about a processing suite (or set of suites) that process data for \
different types of uses, visual display, DEM analysis, \
etc.  Each "processor" stack would/could have it's own rules \
associated with data resolution vs files sizes, etc.   </p> \
</div> <p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
bobb </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<br>
<br>
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<br>
<br>
>>> "<st1 st="on" personname="#DEFAULT" \
w="#DEFAULT">Landon Blake</st1>" <lblake@ksninc.com> wrote:<o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<div style="padding-right: 0in; margin-left: 11.25pt; padding-top: 0in; \
border-left: solid #050505 1.0pt; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 5.0pt; border: \
none"> <div>
<p style="background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; \
background-image: null; margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; background-color: #F3F3F3; \
background-position: null"> <!--ppd1000033-->
</p>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
Bobb wrote: “Here's my reasoning, we're \
never (ever?) going to hit the top end on how big files ever get, \
resolution just keeps going up and up, so there is always going to be some upper \
limit that will need to be breached somehow.  Working out a proper method \
for segregating the data up front (dare I say it), as some sort of \
standard (which can be adjusted as time passes) will make everything work \
nicely, then all will work with available tools when they are available, if \
tools to handle larger datasets become available, and the community feels there \
is a reason/need that these new larger files need to be handled, then they get to \
change the standard.”<o p="#DEFAULT"></o><o p="#DEFAULT"></o> \
</p> </div>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; \
background-image: null; margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; background-color: #F3F3F3; \
background-position: null"> <o p="#DEFAULT">
</p>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
               </o><o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
I agree with some of the points you are making in your argument \
Bobb. There is certainly a practical limit to how much you data you should put in a \
single file. That is why we have lumber cut to 8 foot lengths. You don’t need a \
flatbed semi to carry it to your house. :]<o p="#DEFAULT"></o><o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
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<p style="background-repeat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; \
background-image: null; margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; background-color: #F3F3F3; \
background-position: null"> <o p="#DEFAULT">
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               </o><o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0; margin-top: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
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When you refer to a standard for splitting data up front, \
what do you mean?<o p="#DEFAULT"></o><o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> \
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It would be interesting to come up with a standard structure on a \
computer file system that could be used to accessed tiled raster data, if this \
hasn’t been done already. One the file system structure was defined, it \
would be fairly easy to write open source software that accessed this structure and \
provided individual tiles as a service to desktop GIS applications.<o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o><o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
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Landon<o p="#DEFAULT"></o><o p="#DEFAULT"></o> \
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discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org \
[mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> \
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On Behalf Of <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
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Bob Basques<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
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Monday, August 24, 2009 7:33 AM<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> \
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To: <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
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OSGeo Discussions </p>
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and \
ProprietaryAlgorithms <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
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All, <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
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Ok, I'm probably going to get someone irritated, but \
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Why not approach this from the other end of the spectrum and work \
at making the original files smaller.  Work with the providers to make the \
images smaller in the first place, or at least come up with a maximum practical \
size to work with, I mean if this is the only (or biggest reason) for \
implementing JP2, then getting folks to make the smaller deliverables seems like \
a better long term approach. <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
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Here's my reasoning, we're never (ever?) \
going to hit the top end on how big files ever get, resolution just keeps going \
up and up, so there is always going to be some upper limit that will need to be \
breached somehow.  Working out a proper method for segregating the data up \
front (dare I say it), as some sort of standard (which can be \
adjusted as time passes) will make everything work nicely, then all will work \
with available tools when they are available, if tools to handle larger datasets \
become available, and the community feels there is a reason/need that these new \
larger files need to be handled, then they get to change the standard. <o \
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               </o><o \
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bobb <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
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>>> "Fawcett, David" \
<David.Fawcett@state.mn.us> wrote:<o p="#DEFAULT"></o><o p="#DEFAULT"></o> \
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<br>
I realize that there are likely not a large number of people \
who have<br>the expertise and experience to write this kind of code. <br><br>Is \
this a project that should be shopped around for \
funding?  Google<br>Summer of Code?  A grant from \
our ~benevolent overlord Google?  Some<br>other foundation or \
org interested in open data formats? <br><br>David.<br>-----Original \
Message-----<br>From: \
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org<br>[mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] \
On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek<br>Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 4:36 \
PM<br>To: <st1 st="on" personname="#DEFAULT" w="#DEFAULT">OSGeo \
Discussions</st1><br>Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and \
Proprietary<br>Algorithms<br><snip><br><br><br>> Do you know why there \
hasn't been a broader adoption of JP2?<br><br>Not through lack of trying on \
my part :-)<br><br>I think the two biggest reasons are:<br><br>(1) The \
algorithms for handling large images in memory really are rocket<br>science, and \
no one in the FOSS community has gotten the "itch"<br>sufficiently bad \
enough to go and do the work needed inside the existing<br>open source \
packages.  Hopefully someday someone \
will.<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Discuss mailing \
list<br>Discuss@lists.osgeo.org <a \
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/ \
listinfo/discuss</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Discuss \
mailing list<br>Discuss@lists.osgeo.org<br><a \
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o><o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
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Warning: </p>
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Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against \
defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the \
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, \
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have \
received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. \
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