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List: osgeo-discuss
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats
From: "Bob Basques" <Bob.Basques () ci ! stpaul ! mn ! us>
Date: 2009-08-21 18:42:25
Message-ID: 4A8EA441.163B.00A8.0 () ci ! stpaul ! mn ! us
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All,
I agree, very good conversation, I've already pointed a few folks at it as the same \
topic has come up here at work on two different projects, as well as a Survey I just \
completed yesterday for a Federal data provider. I pointed the survey taker at this \
thread as well.
bobb
> > > "Landon Blake" <lblake@ksninc.com> wrote:
I think we were talking about the easiest way to implement saving space. :]
I was trying to point out (and maybe Paul was also) that ease of implementation (now \
or in the future) should be a factor the government chooses when selection a file \
format/technology for data storage and distribution to the public.
There are a number of other factors, as MPG mentioned.
This has been a really good discussion, and I will try to get some content about open \
file formats on the wiki as Arnulf requested. Maybe next week?
Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
From:
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org]
On Behalf Of
Bob Basques
Sent:
Friday, August 21, 2009 11:28 AM
To:
OSGeo Discussions; Ivan Lucena
Subject:
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OpenFile FormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
All,
Can someone remind me again, are we talking about saving space, or making it easier \
to implement something . . . :c)
I personally prefer nice simple internal pyramided tiles with indexing, about 10% \
extra space, and very good performance.
Someone earlier in this thread spoke about some of these technologies being somewhat \
obsolete what with the new network and bandwidth speeds available for publishing.
bobb
> > > "Lucena, Ivan" <ivan.lucena@pmldnet.com> wrote:
But you can't compress data types other than byte in JPG. Can you do that in JP2K?
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Landon Blake <lblake@ksninc.com>
> Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open \
> FileFormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
> Sent: Aug 21 '09 12:42
>
> Paul,
>
> I was wondering the same thing.
>
> It seems a little like choosing to drive a Honda Accord, or a Ferrari.
> The Ferrari is a lot faster and comes with a better looking trophy wife
> (or husband), but the Honda is a lot easier to fix. (Try finding an
> affordable Ferrari mechanic in Stockton, California.)
>
> To tie this back into our original discussion, it seems like the
> government should be choosing to drive a Honda Accord when it can,
> instead of the Ferrari.
>
> I guess you'd really have to crunch the numbers and see if the savings
> in bandwidth/disk space costs were really worth the compression savings
> that result from a proprietary compression scheme ("wavelet black
> magic").
>
> The problem with this is a lot of the benefits that come from the Honda
> Accord (open image format + open compression algorithm) aren't easily
> calculated in dollars and cents.
>
> Still, this speaks to an important truth I have discovered in open
> source development: Simple is better, even when it isn't necessarily
> faster and smaller.
>
> I'd rather have code that I can understand, or a file format that a
> programmer in 20 years will understand, than a Ferrari you can't drive
> unless you have a PHD and did a thesis on wavelet compression. :]
>
> Landon
> Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
> Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org
> [mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:36 AM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File
> FormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
>
> So hung up on wavelets, we are.
>
> Internally tiled TIFF with JPEG compression and similarly formatted
> internal overviews can achieve 10:1 compression rates without
> noticeable image quality reductions, and as an added bonus can be
> decompressed a heck of a lot faster than wavelet-based formats. The
> wavelet stuff is k00l, in that there is no need for an overview
> pyramid (it's implicit in the compression math) and much higher
> compression rates can be achieved. But operationally, you can go a
> long way with the more primitive (open image format + open compression
> algorithm) approach.
>
> P.
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> Warning:
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> including translation and transmission
errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any \
dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. \
If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
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>
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margin-bottom: 0"> <font size="3" face="Comic Sans MS">All,</font> </p>
<br>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<font size="3" face="Comic Sans MS">I agree, very good conversation, \
I've already pointed a few folks at it as the same topic has come up here at work \
on two different projects, as well as a Survey I just completed yesterday for a \
Federal data provider. I pointed the survey taker at this thread as well.</font> \
</p> <br>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<font size="3" face="Comic Sans MS">bobb</font> </p>
<br>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<br>
<br>
>>> "Landon Blake" <lblake@ksninc.com> wrote:<br> \
</p> <div style="padding-left: 7px; border-left: solid 1px #050505; margin-bottom: \
0; background-color: #f3f3f3; margin-left: 15px; margin-top: 0; margin-right: 0"> <p \
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<br>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
I think we were talking about the easiest way to implement saving space. \
:]<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
I was trying to point out (and maybe Paul was also) that ease of \
implementation (now or in the future) should be a factor the government \
chooses when selection a file format/technology for data storage and distribution to \
the public.<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
There are a number of other factors, as MPG mentioned. <o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
This has been a really good discussion, and I will try to get some \
content about open file formats on the wiki as Arnulf requested. Maybe next \
week?<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Landon </p>
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<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
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<br>
<div style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 </p>
</div>
<div style="color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
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<br>
<div style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 </p>
</div>
<div style="color: navy">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
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<br>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
 <o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p>
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<br>
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  </p>
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From: </p>
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<div style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: Tahoma">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org \
[mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] </p> <div \
style="font-weight: bold"> <p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
On Behalf Of </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Bob Basques<br> </p>
<div style="font-weight: bold">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Sent: </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Friday, August 21, 2009 11:28 AM<br> </p>
<div style="font-weight: bold">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
To: </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<st1 st="on" personname="#DEFAULT" w="#DEFAULT">
OSGeo Discussions</st1>; Ivan Lucena<br> </p>
<div style="font-weight: bold">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Subject: </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OpenFile \
FormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] </p> </div>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
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<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
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<o p="#DEFAULT">
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
All, </p>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
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<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Comic Sans MS">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Can someone remind me again, are we talking about saving space, \
or making it easier to implement something . . .  :c) </p> \
</div> <p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Comic Sans MS">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
I personally prefer nice simple internal pyramided tiles with \
indexing, about 10% extra space, and very good performance. </p> \
</div> <p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Comic Sans MS">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
Someone earlier in this thread spoke about some of these technologies \
being somewhat obsolete what with the new network and bandwidth speeds available for \
publishing. </p> </div>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: Comic Sans MS">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
bobb </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
</o>
</p>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<o p="#DEFAULT">
 </o> </p>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
<br>
<br>
>>> "Lucena, Ivan" <ivan.lucena@pmldnet.com> \
wrote:<o p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
<div style="padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 5.0pt; \
border-left: solid #050505 1.0pt; border: none; margin-left: 11.25pt; padding-top: \
0in"> <br>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt">
<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0">
But you can't compress data types other than byte in JPG. Can you \
do that in JP2K?<br><br><br>>  -------Original \
Message-------<br>>  From: <st1 st="on" personname="#DEFAULT" \
w="#DEFAULT">Landon Blake</st1> <lblake@ksninc.com><br>>  Subject: \
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open \
FileFormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]<br>>  Sent: \
Aug 21 '09 12:42<br>> <br>>  Paul,<br>> <br>>  I \
was wondering the same thing.<br>> <br>>  It seems a little like \
choosing to drive a Honda Accord, or a Ferrari.<br>>  The Ferrari is \
a lot faster and comes with a better looking trophy wife<br>>  (or \
husband), but the Honda is a lot easier to fix. (Try finding \
an<br>>  affordable Ferrari mechanic in <st1 st="on" place="#DEFAULT" \
w="#DEFAULT"><st1 city="#DEFAULT" st="on" w="#DEFAULT">Stockton</st1>, <st1 \
st="on" state="#DEFAULT" \
w="#DEFAULT">California</st1></st1>.)<br>> <br>>  To tie \
this back into our original discussion, it seems like \
the<br>>  government should be choosing to drive a Honda Accord when it \
can,<br>>  instead of the \
Ferrari.<br>> <br>>  I guess you'd really have to crunch the \
numbers and see if the savings<br>>  in bandwidth/disk space costs were \
really worth the compression savings<br>>  that result from a \
proprietary compression scheme ("wavelet \
black<br>>  magic").<br>> <br>>  The \
problem with this is a lot of the benefits that come from the \
Honda<br>>  Accord (open image format + open compression \
algorithm) aren't easily<br>>  calculated in dollars and \
cents.<br>> <br>>  Still, this speaks to an important truth \
I have discovered in open<br>>  source development: Simple is \
better, even when it isn't necessarily<br>>  faster and \
smaller.<br>> <br>>  I'd rather have code that I can \
understand, or a file format that a<br>>  programmer in 20 years \
will understand, than a Ferrari you can't drive<br>>  unless you \
have a PHD and did a thesis on wavelet compression. \
:]<br>> <br>>  Landon<br>>  Office Phone \
Number: (209) 946-0268<br>>  Cell Phone Number: (209) \
992-0658<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>>  -----Original \
Message-----<br>>  From: \
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org<br>>  [mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] \
On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey<br>>  Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 \
10:36 AM<br>>  To: <st1 st="on" personname="#DEFAULT" w="#DEFAULT">OSGeo \
Discussions</st1><br>>  Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open \
File<br>>  FormatsandProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]<br>> <br>>  So \
hung up on wavelets, we are.<br>> <br>>  Internally tiled \
TIFF with JPEG compression and similarly formatted<br>>  internal \
overviews can achieve 10:1 compression rates without<br>>  noticeable \
image quality reductions, and as an added bonus can \
be<br>>  decompressed a heck of a lot faster than wavelet-based formats. \
The<br>>  wavelet stuff is k00l, in that there is no need for an \
overview<br>>  pyramid (it's implicit in the compression \
math) and much higher<br>>  compression rates can be achieved. But \
operationally, you can go a<br>>  long way with the more primitive \
(open image format + open compression<br>>  algorithm) \
approach.<br>> <br>>  P.<br>>  _______________________________________________<br>>  Discuss \
mailing list<br>>  Discuss@lists.osgeo.org<br>>  <a \
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/ \
listinfo/discuss</a><br>> <br>> <br>>  Warning:<br>>  Information \
provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation \
and transmission<br>errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are \
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or<br>copying of this \
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in \
error, please notify the<br>sender \
immediately.<br>>  _______________________________________________<br>>  Discuss \
mailing list<br>>  Discuss@lists.osgeo.org<br>>  <a \
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/ \
listinfo/discuss</a><br>> <br>_______________________________________________<br>Discuss \
mailing list<br>Discuss@lists.osgeo.org<br><a \
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><o \
p="#DEFAULT"></o> </p> </div>
</div>
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<br>
<br>
</p>
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<font size="1" face="Arial"><b>Warning:<br style="font-size: 1; font-family: \
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prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the \
sender immediately.</font> </p>
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