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List:       openjdk-openjfx-dev
Subject:    Re: The Case for JavaFX & Emulated L&Fs (across iOS, Android etc.)
From:       Scott Palmer <swpalmer () gmail ! com>
Date:       2015-07-29 21:29:32
Message-ID: C31AB181-F946-4E35-93BF-E2A22F3DDBF3 () gmail ! com
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As long as SceneBuilder is maintained I'm all for FXML. It is entirely useless \
without SceneBuilder though, and doing complex UI layouts without SceneBuilder is a \
pain in the butt. I have no issues with CSS either. There's no need to keep inventing \
new ways of doing what CSS does. It's much easier to use it to customize the look of \
an app than to go the Swing route and have to do all the ugly details in Java code. \
Good IDE support for editing CSS can mitigate the issues caused by not having the \
static type checking. CSS isn't perfect, but coding LnFs the Swing way just means \
it's never going to happen for most apps because it isn't worth the time.

Scott

> On Jul 29, 2015, at 5:07 PM, Tomas Mikula <tomas.mikula@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I share your view of FXML and CSS. I will not shed a single tear if the
> support for them is dropped tomorrow. My main problem with CSS is that it
> lacks any sort of static "type" checking.
> 
> Tomas
> 
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 7:36 AM, cogmission (David Ray) <
> cognitionmission@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The argument against emulated L&Fs hinges on one point: That they will
> > "always" be one step behind.
> > 
> > This (Greg Brown et al.) is a fallacy!
> > 
> > The reason being is that companies like Apple and Google count on
> > "affinity", acculturation, and familiarization with a given method of
> > presentation in order to increase patronage!
> > 
> > It is *not* like these companies change their L&Fs with every new release.
> > You are confusing language/application features with presentation formats -
> > which *do not* change at the same rate. Apple has changed its iOS widget
> > set twice in the last ~10 years! (while features do in fact change) ...and
> > let's not talk about the speed of Android feature uptake; let alone actual
> > GUI widget-set changes?
> > 
> > Yes, Oracle can indeed keep up with L&F changes - *easily*; and they do not
> > have to worry about "features" so much because much of that is passed to
> > implementation developers.
> > 
> > Another point.
> > 
> > HTML 5 usage idioms suck. (Sorry, I feel strongly about this). The whole
> > idea of spreading L&F configuration across 2 or 3 different formats is
> > ill-conceived and painfully over-verbose! (Yes I'm talking about FXML,
> > BXML; CSS etc...) The fact that it allows designers  to function
> > autonomously is also a fallacy. I have never seen this play out in actual
> > practice - as time-to-market doesn't allow the creation of "perfect code"
> > (in terms of separation of concerns) - because developers cost too much
> > money; and while companies want expressively rich UIs - they are
> > concordantly not willing to pay for it. (unfortunately - I have seen this
> > over and over and over again).
> > 
> > Back to the point...
> > 
> > Spreading the UI definition across language formats means the developer has
> > to learn more than one format to get the job done - thus invoking the
> > eventuality; "Jack of all trades; Master of none." This also makes
> > maintainability dependent on local convention (which is absurd and not
> > dependable across implementation entities).
> > 
> > The only thing it (FXML, BXML) is good for is automatic GUI builder
> > implementations; and it should be left at that.
> > 
> > CSS is not intuitive (as is a GUI widget toolset API; in the language of
> > implementation). Mastery depends on memorization (which is a losing
> > proposition for uptake); instead of intuitive insight across consistent
> > methods of accomplishing tasks.
> > 
> > I think in our field, if something is said often enough - it starts to be
> > accepted as truth. I for one would like to stand up against some of these
> > misnomers.
> > 
> > I apologize for my emphatic expression of these points - I have been
> > holding this in for a long time :-P
> > 
> > --
> > *With kind regards,*
> > 
> > David Ray
> > Java Solutions Architect
> > 
> > *Cortical.io <http://cortical.io/>*
> > Sponsor of:  HTM.java <https://github.com/numenta/htm.java>
> > 
> > d.ray@cortical.io
> > http://cortical.io
> > 


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