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List:       openejb-user
Subject:    Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
From:       Richard Zowalla <rzo1 () apache ! org>
Date:       2024-03-31 9:57:42
Message-ID: aee84b869254c8b690f56b808c13db3b07860ff0.camel () apache ! org
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Hi,

to follow up here. 

We had a docker-compose.yml inside of the project's root directory to
build (and even debug) TomEE during a build since 2017, but it was
outdated and broken with TomEE 9+. I just fixed it for TomEE 10, so if
anyone wants to give it a try to build TomEE 10 from source, he/she can
just use the provided docker-compose file. 

The "build-quick" won't run unit tests but creates the binaries.

Feel free to give it a try, Bart.

Best
Richard

Am Mittwoch, dem 20.03.2024 um 16:33 -0500 schrieb David Blevins:
> Hi Bart,
> 
> Really, thank you for even trying to help at all.   You are
> remarkable.
> 
> The docker idea could help, but that would still involve someone with
> time to create it.   Side note, I know Richard has put some effort
> into the build and ensuring it can work in Intellij, so things might
> be better for you now.   Even with the build perfect, we'd still need
> someone with the time to provide development guidance and merge PRs.
> 
> I had an idea on the sponsoring concept.   We do have 34 committers
> that have been added over the last 24 years.   Maybe we get sponsor
> one of them to help onboard new contributors like yourself in their
> evening hours for a few weeks.   We could use the Github Sponsor path
> to get them the funding and I'd match whatever you put up.   We put
> some formality on it, like specific dates where online sessions would
> happen (say one hour in the evening per week, for specific date
> range) and I can use my platform to advertise it.   Then we go through
> the list of people who have showed interest in helping in the last
> few years and try to get them to attend and see what magic we can
> make happen.
> 
> Then we'd have someone who knows the codebase a bit, can fix build
> issues, review and merge PRs, etc. and perhaps we can turn some
> hopeful contributors into committers.
> 
> The project has more or less "died" three times over the last 24
> years and the challenge each time was getting enough people enabled
> to help others.   The previous times I basically did it myself with
> brute force and huge investments of time and it'd get things running
> again for a few years.   The last time was 2007.   We now have Github
> Sponsors, Twitter and way more eyes on the project; advantages that
> weren't there before.
> 
> If it works we could maybe do it a few times and keep pumping up the
> project and related projects.   The real truth behind this is our
> dependent projects are in the same boat: CXF, Johnzon, OpenWebBeans,
> BatchEE, BVal, etc.   All the projects mentioned are actually the only
> other implementation of the spec in the industry and sadly, TomEE is
> the only Jakarta EE implementation that ships them.   All other
> vendors combined pool their resources on just the Eclipse
> implementations of those specs, which means they set a pace that
> doesn't reflect actual diversity and is why we are always behind; if
> you actually do what standards are for (implementation choice,
> innovation, competition) you have a disadvantage in this market as
> you're the only one doing it which is just backwards.   We could
> potentially have a big impact if we can get a pattern that works to
> create committers.
> 
> I've got a couple people in mind who might like to do such a thing.  
> Could be worth a try at least once.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> -David
> 
> > On Mar 20, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen
> > <bart_van_leeuwen@netage.nl> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi David,
> > 
> > thank you again for the extensive email, I see the 'deadlock' or
> > 'race 
> > condition' in supporting financially, and one could indeed argue
> > that 
> > might not be the way to go.
> > 
> > I would certainly be interested in having 'Tomee development for
> > dummies' 
> > session or something.
> > I haven't looked at the development environment in a while so I
> > might say 
> > something that is already covered. 
> > My first attempt at compiling Tomee stranded in the build
> > environment, 
> > would a docker image with a development environment be feasible?
> > 
> > 
> > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards
> > Bart van Leeuwen
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From:     "David Blevins" <david.blevins@gmail.com>
> > To:         users@tomee.apache.org
> > Date:     20-03-2024 01:20
> > Subject:               Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project?
> > (was Re: 
> > Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Bart,
> > 
> > If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that
> > plan A 
> > and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for
> > everyone. 
> > It has the most potential benefit to the project and you long term.
> > 
> > The trick with financial support is nothing short of enough to
> > cover a 
> > salary really helps.   My experience is no one has that kind of
> > budget to 
> > spare and get nothing but open source in return.   You usually need
> > a few 
> > supporters to cover one person.   They typically get something in
> > return 
> > (like 24x7 support) and that often means the person who gets
> > brought on 
> > now has a huge learning curve like you would have, but also a list
> > of 
> > tickets to solve before they can spend time on oss, so they still
> > end up 
> > with the "I have day job" problem.   Only now it's a day and night
> > job 
> > (24x7 support), so the evenings you had to contribute are now
> > gone.   That 
> > is pretty much the current situation with the original contributors
> > like 
> > myself.
> > 
> > Contributing time directly has its own challenges.   A big one is
> > that once 
> > a project gets so low in people with time, there is no one
> > available to 
> > help new potential contributors.   We have 34 committers, but we're
> > lucky 
> > to see 3.   It's a big project with dependences that are quite large
> > themselves and the time to teach all of that is nearly equivalent
> > to the 
> > time for the other person to learn it.   By the time people learn
> > it, they 
> > often move on to other jobs and often the value the project got is
> > low for 
> > the time spent.   All that said, if you or I had unlimited resources
> > this 
> > would still be the case.   We'd have a bunch of newly hired people
> > who 
> > don't know what to do and only a small number of (very overworked)
> > people 
> > to enable them.   It would still be hard for everyone.
> > 
> > The big win would be you could be a positive example: we use it, so
> > we 
> > contribute.   People need to see this.   We need to encourage people
> > to 
> > follow that example.
> > 
> > It is possible to start small and slowly work towards bigger
> > things.   It 
> > does take constant guidance and someone with time to help and that
> > is the 
> > big trick.   People frequently don't get too far and that's another 
> > challenge   and a real opportunity cost if it doesn't work.   We can
> > greatly 
> > lower that risk if we can get a few people like you together and
> > teach a 
> > handful of people how to contribute at once.
> > 
> > Maybe if we can get a few others signed up, we can setup some kind
> > of 
> > semi-regular zoom meetings to help people find a way in.   You could
> > lean 
> > on each other as you go.   This greatly helps in feeling safe asking
> > "stupid" questions as you know others who need the answer.   Then
> > there are 
> > more people to help others get in and we start to get back on our
> > feet 
> > again.
> > 
> > Are there others in Bert's position who have employer support to 
> > contribute but aren't sure where to start?
> > 
> > 
> > -David
> > 
> > 
> > > On Mar 19, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen 
> > <bart_van_leeuwen@netage.nl> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi David,
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your extensive and personal email. It is good to
> > > hear the 
> > > back story of these projects now and then.
> > > 
> > > I have to admit I'm in the same boat as Vicente, I would like to 
> > > contribute, I can commit work time, but the sheer volume of the
> > > project 
> > is 
> > > intimidating at least and makes it hard to get started.
> > > So I would be willing to support development financially,
> > > preferably in 
> > a 
> > > way that gets most of the money to the people who do the work, or
> > > the 
> > ones 
> > > that pay their paycheck.
> > > 
> > > That however is not solving the real problem, the lack of
> > > commiters to 
> > the 
> > > project. Ideally there would be a way for lesser gods, like
> > > myself, to 
> > > take small bites of the project, instead of eating the whole
> > > elephant.
> > > The question obviously is, is that even possible?
> > > 
> > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards
> > > Bart van Leeuwen
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From:     "David Blevins" <david.blevins@gmail.com>
> > > To:         users@tomee.apache.org
> > > Date:     19-03-2024 03:20
> > > Subject:               Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was
> > > Re: 
> > Will 
> > > Tomee be discontinued ?)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Mar 16, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Vicente Rossello
> > > > <cocorossello@gmail.com> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > > I've tried a few times to do some contributions to the project,
> > > > but 
> > > testing
> > > > the TCK or solving almost any issue is really hard, and very
> > > > far from 
> > > what
> > > > I'm used to do in my daily work. And now I don't have much
> > > > time... 
> > > family
> > > > and work consumes almost all my time.
> > > > 
> > > > I really find this project relevant in the jakarta EE and I
> > > > would love 
> > > to
> > > > see it keep going. What I can do is to make some donations. I
> > > > guess 
> > that
> > > > the donations should go to apache, my question is can I fund
> > > > this 
> > > specific
> > > > project? Also I see that donations are tax deductible in the
> > > > US, does
> > > > anyone know if this is possible in Spain (or even any country
> > > > in 
> > > Europe)?
> > > 
> > > First, I just want to say on a personal level, I find your email 
> > touching. 
> > > Most people only ask what can I get and not what can I give.   The
> > > world 
> > > needs more people like you.
> > > 
> > > Donations to Apache aren't used to fund development of Apache
> > > projects. 
> > > The foundation in terms of being a corporation is actually
> > > incredibly 
> > > small; less than 10 employees and contractors combined.   The
> > > funding 
> > > Apache gets goes to that very tiny crew and covers
> > > infrastructure, 
> > legal, 
> > > the conferences Apache coordinates and some limited marketing.
> > > 
> > > Everything else including the board of directors are all
> > > volunteers.
> > > 
> > > What that means is there is no way for you to sponsor "the
> > > project", you 
> > 
> > > would have to single out individuals and sponsor them directly.  
> > > I've 
> > used 
> > > Github sponsors to sponsor a few of the people I saw
> > > contributing, such 
> > as 
> > > Daniel Dias, Richard Zowalla and Thomas Andraschko.   They take
> > > 10% and 
> > and 
> > > handle tax.
> > > 
> > > I agree with your perspective on not wanting to sacrifice family
> > > time 
> > for 
> > > open source.   Unfortunately it is the main source of contribution
> > > for 
> > most 
> > > Apache projects and the main reason people burn out and stop 
> > contributing.
> > > 
> > > I used to encourage people to contribute in their spare time and
> > > did so 
> > > myself.   TomEE 1.0 to 1.5 were created and shipped by people
> > > working in 
> > > their spare time.   We would frequently use vacation time to hack
> > > on open 
> > 
> > > source together, cut releases, etc.   The 1.5 release was actually
> > > cut 
> > > while Jean-Louis was in the hospital while his wife was giving
> > > birth to 
> > > their second kid and I was on vacation helping.   On my side I
> > > ended up 
> > > having to quit my job in order to get permission to work on TomEE
> > > in my 
> > > spare time after having gotten in some hot water for taking a
> > > week off 
> > to 
> > > cut the 1.0.   I later learned Jonathan Gallimore had to apply
> > > similar 
> > > pressure to his employer to get the permission to also work in
> > > his spare 
> > 
> > > time.
> > > 
> > > There was some occasional employer support.   Atos/Worldline was 
> > supportive 
> > > as they used OpenEJB and had a smart manager, Jean-Francois
> > > James, that 
> > > saw benefit in allowing some contribution on company time when
> > > they had 
> > a 
> > > specific need (this is where Jean-Louis Monteiro, Romain Manni-
> > > Bucau 
> > > worked).   IBM was very supportive of me in the 2005 - 2010 range
> > > when 
> > > Geronimo was active as long as it benefit Geronimo and my
> > > contributions 
> > > did not compete with Geronimo (which of course they did and that 
> > > ultimately meant I had to work on my spare time most of the
> > > time).
> > > 
> > > That's the very delicate balance that built TomEE.
> > > 
> > > I no longer encourage individuals to sacrifice personal/family
> > > time to 
> > > work on Open Source projects, I don't feel it is ethical
> > > anymore.   I 
> > admit 
> > > that I also do not find it ethical for you as an individual to
> > > sponsor 
> > > other individuals.   It's that the majority of contribution comes
> > > from 
> > > individuals contributing in their family time (not going to call
> > > it 
> > > "spare"   time), while the majority of consumers are for profit 
> > companies.
> > > 
> > > I can't advise people to use their remaining time after work to 
> > contribute 
> > > to Open Source.   This primarily benefits the employer using the
> > > software 
> > 
> > > and comes at the expense to your family.   Nor can I advise people
> > > to use 
> > 
> > > the money they earned working for their employer to sponsor an 
> > individual 
> > > contributor.   Yes, the contributor benefits, but there's no
> > > denying 
> > you're 
> > > essentially helping cover the cost of the open source software
> > > your 
> > > employer uses and using money your family needs to do it.
> > > 
> > > When a company moves onto an open source project to save money
> > > and that 
> > > project is only possible because of individual contributors, it
> > > is 
> > > essentially the families of those contributors who enabled that
> > > savings. 
> > 
> > > Essentially cost has been shifted from the employer to employees
> > > and 
> > their 
> > > families.
> > > 
> > > Unless of course the companies and for-profit consumers also
> > > contribute. 
> > 
> > > Then I no longer have any issue.   Then it's as open source is
> > > mean to to 
> > 
> > > be: everyone who uses also contributes. 
> > > 
> > > Open source is like stone soup.   It's a shared cost model.  
> > > Everyone 
> > > shares the cost by contributing a little and everyone eats.  
> > > Without 
> > that, 
> > > however, it isn't a beautiful story where everyone shares and
> > > everyone 
> > > eats.   It becomes a story where the townfolk all give their last
> > > carrots 
> > 
> > > and potatoes to make soup for the wealthy.
> > > 
> > > None of this is because people are evil, just that open source is
> > > very 
> > new 
> > > and our relationship to it is very young.
> > > 
> > > The true benefit of open source is you can shift from high-cost 
> > > proprietary software while not having to do everything in house
> > > either. 
> > > You can share that cost with others, which will be a fraction of
> > > what 
> > you 
> > > all paid collectively.   The true benefit of an Apache open source
> > project 
> > > is that as a contributor, your relationship to other contributors
> > > is 
> > equal 
> > > and fair and all matters are voted and have board oversight to
> > > correct 
> > if 
> > > things become unfair.
> > > 
> > > Those of you using TomEE at work should have a conversation with
> > > your 
> > > manager so you can all talk and see what you can bring to the
> > > project. 
> > If 
> > > you are unsure how to have that conversation, we can talk about
> > > it.   I'm 
> > 
> > > ok to help people offline as long as you're willing to pay it
> > > forward 
> > and 
> > > help others with this like I helped you.
> > > 
> > > I don't recommend taking time/money away from family.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -David
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 

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